<p>It's not just "poor kids". It's kids like mine whose parents both went to UVA back when you could pay out-of-state tuition, room and board for around $3000 per year and earn a slightly above-average income. Currently in-state is about $18,000---a real deal when compared to other colleges. But what isn't explained in all the contentious support for ED, is that that loan limit AccessUVA sets is for the STUDENT, not the parents. I can tell you a family at the average U.S. income level will still be asked to kick in probably $12,000/year for their child, or something like 25% of their before-tax income, in addition to Stafford loans of probably $4,000/year in their kid's name which will satisfy AccessUVA's limit. AccessUVA is not for the middle-class, it's not intended to be, and that's fine with me because it supports a segment of the population who deserve this opportunity that it never gets. The middle-class has access to loans, home equity, and savings the poorer applicants don't. But it's the middle-class that can't afford to apply under binding ED because we're careful to weigh our choices so we're not up to our eyeballs in debt any more than we have to be by the time our third child goes off to college--when tuition at UVA will have doubled again (their claim, not mine!). </p>
<p>How do I know this? I wouldn't let my first child apply to UVA ED three years ago and her aid package came back under RD as an annual $2000 scholarship, $4000 in subsidized student loans, and the rest to be made up from our family income, home equity, etc. (And of course if you have any savings under FAFSA, you're better off blowing them on a new Hummer because that way they won't count against you.) However, a higher-ranked private university offered my child a package that came in several thousand cheaper than UVA's in-state offer. Had my child applied ED to UVA we'd never have found a better offer. I just don't think middle-income families trust most schools to treat them fairly on FA under ED. You pretty much take what you get. And I think UVA realizes this, too, when they say only a handful of ED applicants even apply for FA, and yet 1/3 of the entering class is filled by ED applicants who have often been characterized as having stats that average below the average of those accepted under RD. So while the rate of acceptance may be the same, the selectivity is not, or why does UVA tell us in past years that many turned down under RD would have been accepted under ED? And why should that advantage go only to those who can afford to pay full-fare?</p>
<p>Heck, I graduated from college thirty-years ago with $15,000 in loans in my name and no one thought that was so unusual. My dad was already sending one kid to Yale and three to prep-schools and when it was my turn for college, his business had no more to give him. I worked every summer and worked during school (not work/study...work!). I don't want my kids to have to do what I did, and I'll find some way to cover it for them. But that's the lot of the middle class, and ED doesn't help that in any way anyone can show me.</p>
<p>"So while the rate of acceptance may be the same, the selectivity is not, or why does UVA tell us in past years that many turned down under RD would have been accepted under ED? And why should that advantage go only to those who can afford to pay full-fare?"</p>
<p>where do you have any evidence to support this? regardless of whether or not its true, UVa is still going to have to accept these 1000 students to fill up the class. its not as big a difference as you're trying to make it out to be.</p>
<p>Then how can you argue against a level playing field a non-ED environment would obviously produce? Or, turn your question around: How would keeping ED help anyone?</p>
<p>ProudDad,
It would help the University to have some form of early admission alternative. If 70% or more of top private high school students in Virginia are oriented to making commitments to early programs, then why should the U take itself out of the running for these students? In my view, it's suicide unless you don't care about getting these students. As these students have historically been an important part of the UVA student population, I hope that is not the case. Furthermore, I doubt that telling them to go look elsewhere is the wisest route. There are good educational alternatives and many of the other schools are willing to use their merit dollars to attract good students. And please, again, how would EA or EN disadvantage low income students and families?</p>
<p>So my kid who's not from a top private school....yet from the second poorest school district in the Commonwealth, isn't what UVA wants? </p>
<p>I guess I don't understand the elitist nature of EA. My daughter has grown academically and personally this final year of high school. Happy she's not locked into an early decision. Her number 1 choice has changed drastically in the past 12 months.</p>
<p>Let's not confuse EA or EN with ED. Personally I've found the EA-type non-binding decisions to be rather civil in how they operate, and they take most of the criticism of ED out of the mix. It's a two-way street allowing those who take an earlier application approach to show their level of interest without committing to a package they can't afford. And that is the point of this thread: an alternative to binding ED. However, some here keep insisting that ED should be retained and that's the position I'd like them to defend. Not EA, EE, EN, or any variation that does not lock an applicant into a choice they don't yet know if they can afford to make. See? So, let's ask again: How would keeping ED help anyone? And (be honest!) who does it help?</p>
<p>momray,
Good for you, good for your daughter, but I don't think it is either/or. There is room for both groups of students. </p>
<p>Just because someone is poor does not automatically make them a better applicant or person. The objective of dropping ED was to create a level playing field where low income students are not disadvantaged. My suggestion is to consider anew the unnecessary results, involving another segment of applicants/students, who actively use early admissions program, and to create a compromise solution that meets the needs of both groups. </p>
<p>These private schools kids (and I am sure that there are many public schoolers as well-I am just not as familiar with how they apply to colleges) have done the work, made the college visits, and feel ready to make a commitment with an early application. But, by not having an early option, UVA is telling these kids to go away and come back later...maybe. Go apply elsewhere because there is no sure thing that you will be accepted at UVA. So what happens is that these students will visit other schools and see quite clearly that, while UVA is a very good school, there is life outside its serpentine walls. And those other schools, now in a position to pick off some of Virginia's students, will make a strong case to attend their school and they may even open their checkbooks to make it financially attractive to do so. The obvious loser in this situation is the University of Virginia as some students who would normally have come to Charlottesville will now end up elsewhere. It is my belief that it does not need to be this way. Early action or early notification could halt much of this potential erosion while still safeguarding the financial flexibility of students with lower economic means.</p>
<p>Frankly, if you think about it, it hurts even the best of applicants. Almost everyone I know who applied ED ended up slacking off the last semester of high school, which in turn hurt their APs and their overall work ethic. They got to college and it had been almost a year since they last put full effort into their work, and it was kind of a sudden shock. While i'm sure this isnt true of all EDers, it will cut any of these types out.
Also, it helps every student because a college may look awesome November 1, but come April 1st, a student might be wishing they had recieved an acceptance from somewhere else as well.</p>
<p>While I see how it will help with lower-income families basing their decision on financial aid more, I think there are many other benifits that somewhat outwiegh the financial aid reasons behind the removal of ED.</p>
<p>I hesitate to jump in here but I will. I have no idea who ED helps or hurts, whether it is a good thing or a bad thing but I can offer at least on very recent and personal observation. My D will be starting this Fall. She was admitted ED. My son will be applying to schools in '08. Good, bad or otherwise, eliminating ED makes UVA a less attractive alternative to him and for him than if UVA kept ED. A simple current observation.</p>
<p>I see shoebox's point of view.....many kids do slack once they've received their accpetance. Not all do, but oh so many. Back in the age of dinosaurs, when I applied, it was rolling admission. I got in on November 1 but I did care and put my best foot forward during my senior year studies. However, many of my counterparts didn't care...were fed up with school and were in college.</p>
<p>John Ross makes a valid point....I'm certain I'd want my younger daughter to apply where her sister is enrolled. But my opinion still remains...the powers that be at UVA (and many other top notch schools) feel EA isn't necessary. Who am I to argue with those in the know?</p>
<p>momray,
As Dean J herself writes on the first page of this thread, many top schools dropped ED, only to reinstate EA (Stanford, Duke). Also, UNC has restored an early program called Early Notification. The big news last fall was that Harvard and Princeton were dropping ED and UVA followed, expecting that many others would do the same. Unfortunately, others did not follow and many have explicitly confirmed their commitment to early programs. Harvard and Princeton will still have the pick of the litter as they are the premier colleges in the country and they will not have yield problems. UVA, on the other hand, will not have this luxury. </p>
<p>Finally, for your statement, "who am I to argue with those in the know?" if YOU feel EA isn't necessary, then take that stance or make that argument, but don't delegate this decision so quickly to others. You can make a judgment on this and don't need to punt it to others. As taxpayers of the state and/or affiliates of the University, we owe it to ourselves, to the current and prospective students and to the school to make sure that we aren't closing one door while opening another.</p>
<p>ED helps people and ESPECIALLY THE UNIVERSITY because, if accepted, they don't/can't apply elsewhere. So for students, the admissions process is done. For the University, they know they have 1/3 of the class filled with quality students.</p>
<p>Heres my issue with EA at a school like Virginia, and why ED is so important/vastly superior to the University's interest. When UVa accepts 900 or so 1st years in the ED round, they can take the very best 900 students out of that group, and KNOW they are coming to UVa. Now HERES THE ISSUE WITH EA. If for example, I apply to UVa EA and get in, in the RD round I would apply ONLY to super elite schools--the Harvards, the Yales, the Stanfords. Sure they are long shots but where's the harm in trying? Now say I get into one of them. I love UVa, but if I had the opportunity to go to Yale or Stanford...Later UVa. I'm sure I'm not in the minority with that line of thinking. If I applied ED and got it, well I'd just be happy to be going to UVa--and be happy that my college application experience is over. We already know this happens in the RD round--UVa's accepted SAT scores are significantly higher then its attending SAT scores. I suspect this will only worsen the situation.</p>
<p>IMO, EA hurts schools which arn't at the top of the foodchain.</p>
<p>I appreciate your honesty. I just can't figure out why your son feels that way. Could you elaborate? I missed something...</p>
<p>Also, I have no idea what high school dajada's son goes to, but I am sure it is a good one. I was stunned to read, however, that 75% of the seniors there are involved in some sort of ED/EA process. I dare say that is far from normal. As a parent who has worked at a very good large public OOS school for years, I know that only a very small percentage of our kids participate in early admissions. Come October of senior year, they have NOT done the work, they have NOT done the visits, and are not ready to commit. Remember, college D-Day has traditionally been in the late spring of senior year--not at the beginning of it. Whatever the reason (counselor/student ratio?), it just doesn't happen. So...I have a hard time believing that we are losing 70-75% of "top" students to ED/EA. And if that figure keeps popping up, I would like to see some stats beyond dajada's school. I think there are PLENTY of top students out there that can wait til April before deciding which "elite" school they want. And if they don't want UVa because they prefer another school.....so what. They should go where they want. Because there will be another top student to take their place at UVa.</p>
<p>Personally, I respect UVa for deciding to stop playing the ED game. College admissions is stressful enough without ED strategizing. IMHO, I think their decision is in line with the ideals of the school.</p>
<p>dajada...I can take a stance all day on why I think EA or ED isn't necessary. Was finding a way to politely bow out of a thread that frankly isn't worth it. </p>
<p>Casey - you asked me to elaborate so here goes. My son saw his older sister work very hard preparing for her SAT's, ACT's and her SATII's--all in her junior year. He also saw her visit over a dozen schools, go on about six interviews and juggle all that while keeping up very good grades and her EC's in school. So what, you might say, that's what most juniors do. He also saw her complete her ED application, her voice supplement, line up her recommendations and push to get her transcript, all well ahead of any deadlines. Finally, he saw her make her third and final visit to UVA in the summer to cement her decision to apply early. He also saw the payback, given what I respectfully suggest may be the need for immediate gratification among those younger folks--their horizons are understandably shorter than older folks. Once his sister was accepted ED, she began to really enjoy her 4 AP courses her senior year because she could learn for learning sake not just for grades. He also saw her continue her extra curricular activities (All-State Soprano) not because she needed it for her resume but rather because she loved it. He also saw her help and nurture her friends who were not so fortunate to be admitted ED and who were having a tough time with perhaps the first rejection in their lives. Basically, he saw a reward and and enthusiasm all freed up by the ability of his sister to focus on learning for learning sake rather than scrambling for grades to put on an application. This all might sound funny to those who have not observed the process but that is why ED holds an allure to my son. He likes to set a goal, achieve the goal, and move on to the next opportunity. ED gives him that chance and if successful, gives him the payback so much earlier in the process than RD. It seems that it is a lot easier to "grind" when the payoff is near than when it is almost a year away. Perhaps this outlook is unusual, perhaps not. In any event, it is why ED is something he is interested in.</p>
<p>I think everyone here is making UVA's case for them very well! It's obvious that a private HS works toward and relies on ED to help their kids gain admission to highly-selective schools (isn't that why they're called "prep" school?). To say that UVA will suffer is silly when most selective colleges say they could accept twice as many of their applicants without effecting the stats used to invent rankings. The applicants disadvantaged by ED are those coming from high schools that don't place a lot of kids in "better" schools and aren't prepared for the tiny percentage who might benefit from an experience at a selective college or university like UVA. These schools don't walk their kids through the process and don't let them know that ED can increase their chances of being offered admission---even if the kids could afford the financial implications of binding ED. It also hurts in-state kids from areas not served by magnet schools, governor's schools, or science high-schools, which includes the majority of the school districts in the state. </p>
<p>The fact that there are advantages to the upper-income-segment of society---whether in-state or OOS---in having their well-prepared and well-guided kids apply ED is not lost on me. The reality is most public-HS guidance counselors are hired to deal with disciplinary and behavioral problems and lack of performance rather than getting that top 5% of their kids in colleges they otherwise might know little or nothing about. These top kids are from average middle-class families, first-generation college bound, poverty-level, and under-represented minorities. Regardless they don't have the resources either at school, at home, or financially to take advantage of ED in its current form. And I think you all know that. Everyone is looking for that leg-up in the application process. But shouldn't that come from your own kids' "hook" instead of their economic advantage? From who they are individually as opposed to how much their parents make? Granted, as parents we'd be fools not to help our kids take advantage of anything that might benefit them in the application process. And some form of non-binding EA or EE should accomplish the de-stressing now performed by ED for some. But is ED in it's current form really fair? Shouldn't the fact that upper-income kids benefit from their parents' sacrifice in paying for a private education make them better-prepared enough without the ED advantage? Shouldn't the fact that some can pay for SAT prep be enough of an advantage in the admissions process over those who can't afford the same benefit? Why rely on the institution to perpetuate the advantages that accrue to the children of the upper-income families? It's not socialism, it's just being fair.</p>
<p>ProudDad,
Nice post and I like many of your idealistic sentiments. But the world is a competitive place and schools that want to be at the top of the food chain (like UVA) have to deal with the world as it is, not as they wish it to be. There is a selfish reason that Harvard and Princeton dropped ED and it wasn't because they could help poor kids (if you believe that, then you're very naive). There is also a selfish reason that no other top school dropped ED or EA(I don't consider the University of Delaware or MWC as comp schools to UVA.) There is a reason that top schools like Duke and Stanford and UNC reinstated EA or EN. They all realized that the competition for the top students is fierce and you don't win if you don't play. By dropping out of the early admissions portion of the admissions calendar, UVA is choosing not to play for many very high quality students both IS and, to a lesser degree, OOS. I hope that I am wrong about all of this, but I don't think so.</p>
<p>UVA is on the top of the food chain (#1 public CU...okay, tied for #1) and maybe, just maybe, this altruism is a reflection of their push to autonomy from state mandates. If having to accept 2/3 of their class from IS doesn't already put them at a disadvantage compared to other schools, ending ED isn't going to change that. Nothing you've said has convinced me UVA has anything other than altruism behind the decision, and even if they re-instituted some form of EA that was non-binding, I'd still applaud their motives. If you're somehow faulting UVA just for not being selfish, I'm pretty sure I won't agree with you! If you truly think dropping ED makes it a worse U for your son because of it, I'd disagree, too. If you just think UVA becomes less attractive to certain applicants because they won't have the opportunity to be chosen from a select and smaller ED pool and will have to face admission decisions along with the hoi polloi, then all I can say is, "Too bad!"</p>
<p>Quality students rarely apply for ED to UVA. Just think of the people who applied ED from each of your schools. They were mostly average or borderline applicants looking to get some extra help in getting into a higher ranked school at which they would have a lower chance in RD. These people are no different from the vast number of average applicants in regular decision. If a student wants to apply to one of the top private schools and has a genuine desire to go to one of them, they wouldn't apply ED in the first place.</p>