Canadian sophomore here. Which schools should I be looking at?

College Search & Selection
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I’m in grade 10 at a medium-sized high school in Ontario. I’ve been thinking a lot about my future lately, but am not entirely sure what I want to do.

My school uses a 1.05 multiplier in order to weight AP grades, and they apply the same rule for pre-AP courses. I took pre-AP Math, Science, English, and Geography in grade 9; I am taking pre-AP History, Math, Science, and English this year. Keep that in mind as you look at my marks (in Math, though, I got 98% both years). Anyway, here are my grades.

Grade 9:

Math: 100%
Science: 95%
Religion: 93%
Business: 93%
English: 86%
Gym: 81%
Geography: 88%
French: 92%

Grade 10 (Semester 1):

History: 97%
Math: 100%
Civics (0.5 credit): 92%
Careers (0.5 credit): 97%
Business: 96%
Media Arts: 94%

This semester, I have English, Science, Religion, and French. I’m pretty confident I can keep up my average from semester 1, since my work ethic has improved quite a bit. My English teacher is also much easier than the one I had last year.

I don’t have any outstanding awards or qualifications. I was a finalist at DECA Provincials last year (so top 15 contestants in my category), but that was in a category designed for first-timers. I’ve gotten first in my school on a couple math contests from UWaterloo, but nothing major.

As for ECs, I’ve just done a couple random community service activities here and there. I’m currently part of my school’s Business Club and some leadership program. I’m planning on starting a math/science olympiad club soon.

So…yeah. No real talents or anything. I like math and science, but also really enjoyed History last semester. I was planning on taking Physics, Biology and Chemistry along with Computer Science next year, but am now thinking of dropping some of them and taking more history/humanities courses. I’m pretty confident I can maintain an average in the mid-90s in grade 11 and 12.

Safety? Match? Reach? Our school basically feeds into UWaterloo and McMaster, and most of my friends are looking at those two. What do you guys think?

2

You need to talk to your parents about what they can afford. If you are a Canadian citizen or permanent resident, McMaster or Waterloo will cost about $80K Canadian total including room and board for an undergraduate degree. US schools can cost $300K USD or about $400K Canadian total including room and board.

There are very few schools that are better than Waterloo for CS and engineering or McMaster for health sciences.

Are you Asian? Be aware that US schools take ethnicity into account while Canadian schools do not. It is an uphill battle for an Asian student to get into the tippy top schools in the US, especially one who does not go to high school in the US, or one who is not a US citizen.

If you do not take physics and chemistry next year, you will close the door on any engineering programs. If you do not take biology and chemistry, you will not be able to take a life science program. Think about your options very carefully and keep in mind that what you might want today may be very different than what you want when you are in grade 12.

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@bouders

My parents have expressed that they should be okay with around $10000 a year (the less the better). I hope to get a few scholarships here there, and I will most likely work over the summers as well (possibly starting in high school). If I do go to Waterloo, I plan on paying for most of my tuition through the co-op program. I live pretty close to Waterloo and the University of Toronto, so residency isn’t a must for me.

I realize that there are very few schools in the U.S. that are better than Mac and Waterloo for those programs. I’m only looking to apply to the ones that offer full need-based aid to international students, and practice need-blind admissions. Yes, I am Asian, and I have heard that it is very difficult for Asian students to get into the top U.S. schools due to affirmative action. It’s just always been a dream of mine to study at a top college in the States, and the ones I’m looking at will be cheaper than the schools I’m looking at here in Canada. I realize that it is going to be pretty much impossible for me to get into the top American schools, but I haven’t given up yet.

I’ll most likely be going forward with my current plan, then. My school hosts the Information and Communications Technology SHSM program…is it worth doing it? Most of my friends want to go into the computer science/engineering programs, so they’ve signed up. From what I’ve heard, it basically involves taking computer science and tech courses over the next two years and doing a co-op in May. That’ll mean that I’ll have to drop my French and History courses. How important do you think it’ll be in college admissions? I’m just worried that I’ll change my mind after signing up.

I’m just wondering which schools I should be looking at in Canada as safeties, matches, and reaches. I’ve mostly been looking at UWaterloo, since they have good programs in engineering and the sciences. They also apparently have the world’s largest co-op program.

Do you know of any summer enrichment programs here in Ontario? I’m looking for something that will allow me to explore my interests in the sciences and keep me busy over the summer. It would be great if it would give me a better chance at getting into college programs, but I definitely want something fun as well.

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@chaossorcerer I recommend asking your parents to look at the net price calculators (NPCs) on a few US universities’ websites. What they may think of as their need will likely differ from what US universities think their need is. You will be already at a disadvantage as an international and as an Asian. Requesting need will further disadvantage you. Very few US colleges/universities are need blind, that is, they don’t look at how much financial aid you require. Most US colleges and universities will prefer to accept someone who can pay full tuition.

I would recommend keeping French and History. US universities prefer students that take 4 years of foreign language, science, social studies, math and English.

In Canada, you apply to a program within a university. Some programs are much more selective than others within the same university. What type of program are you looking for?

Summer programs: I highly recommend that you apply to SHAD in the fall for summer 2019. https://www.shad.ca/Future-SHADs-Parents.htm SHAD improves your chances at Waterloo. SHAD takes place at multiple university campuses across the country.

More summer programs: U of T has a medicine youth summer program which still has spots for this summer. http://ysp.utoronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/YSP_Brochure_2018-FINAL-web.pdf as well as an engineering program (DEEP) The DEEP website is hard to navigate, but applications are now open and close in 2 weeks. Click on the complete your online form on this page http://outreach.engineering.utoronto.ca/pre-university-programs/deep/apply-deep/
Waterloo has several programs - https://uwaterloo.ca/future-students/visit-waterloo/high-school-enrichment-programs
Queens has engineering programs https://engineering.queensu.ca/about-us/educational-outreach/queens-summer-engineering-academy/
York has programs http://helix.science.yorku.ca/ but I couldn’t get the links on that page to work.
McMaster has several programs. https://www.eng.mcmaster.ca/connect/youth

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Just my experience, but as a Canadian, I got a very cheap top tier undergraduate education in Canada at a top 5 Canadian school, and then went to grad school (Ph.D) in the US at a internationally top 10 school. I didn’t pay a cent for grad school - in science/engineering, you are paid a stipend. If your dream is to attend a US school, you should consider this path. I feel like I got the best of both worlds, and none of the student debt that my American colleagues are burdened with.

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@bouders Thanks for the reply! I’m looking at Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, and UPenn as realistic (in the sense that I’ll actually be able to afford an education there on the tiny chance I get in) dream schools since they practice need-blind admissions and offer need-based aid to international students.

I really enjoy History and French, so that’s awesome news.

I’m looking at Software Engineering and Computer Science at UWaterloo, as well as some of their natural sciences programs. I realize that these are some of the most selective in the country, but from what I heard at Waterloo on Thursday (Grade 10 Family Night) grades are the most important factor in admissions. I’m pretty confident I can get these marks in grade 12 as I’ll only be taking courses I enjoy and can do well in (they’ve listed the admissions chances for each engineering program on their website: https://uwaterloo.ca/engineering/future-undergraduate-students/application-process/admission-averages). I know there are a lot of other things I need to do between now and then, but I think I’ll have a good chance at these programs. I also expect to do pretty well on the Euclid contest. I’m not counting on it, though, so I am looking at the University of Toronto as well (from what I’ve heard, admissions are less selective across the board).

I’m really not sure what I should do. My main interests are in the sciences, but I also really like History and Politics. I’m trying to keep my options open. I realize that this is probably hurting my chances of getting into the top American schools, but I’m just not the kind of person to put everything aside for one subject/field of study.

Thank you so much for the links. I was looking at the Med YSP but I don’t know if my parents will be able to afford it. The Helix program at York looks awesome.

@geraniol Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I would also get to go to school with my high school friends for undergrad.

May I ask which schools you went to and what you studied?

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@chaossorcerer UBC then Stanford, physical science. A good number of friends in other fields did a similar thing. In my PhD program, we accepted a handful from Canadian schools every year. You need to be strong student, but imo it’s more feasible than going for undegrad.

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@geraniol

That’s awesome - both amazing schools! What do you plan to do as a Ph.D? Or are you already employed?

Do you have any suggestions as to how I should find something I’m interested in/good at? What would you say are some good Canadian safeties/matches/reaches for me?

Thanks for the replies, by the way.

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Top American schools want to see that you are strong across the board. Do the extracurriculars that you enjoy and the rest will fall into place.

You still have over a year before you have to worry about applying to universities. US schools don’t expect you to have chosen a major when you apply. Your path will become more clear by the time you’re a senior. My daughter was unsure which path she wanted to take when she was applying to universities, so she applied to a range of programs. By the time she had to make a decision, she knew which way she wanted to go. She chose a program (in Ontario) which had a combination of several different subjects which allowed her to see which she liked better. Her first semester, she really liked one aspect of the program and was certain that was the way she wanted to go. Second semester she hated the next course in that subject. Your likes and dislikes will change a lot in the next few years. Don’t worry about having a path mapped out right now. Explore different areas and see what you like.

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I also know a few people who did undergrad in Canada, and graduate school in the US.

You can run the NPC to get a reasonable guess regarding what a US school is likely to cost you. Of course this is current prices, and is expressed in US dollars. The NPCs are not accurate if your parents are divorced, or your parents own a small business, a farm, or rental property (if any of these last three, US school prices might be ugly). Otherwise they give pretty good guess regarding what university in the US might cost.

I wouldn’t pay more for undergrad in the US than in Canada. You have some very good schools in Canada, with a lot of them in Ontario.

One issue to keep in mind: Canadian companies prefer to recruit from Canadian universities. US companies prefer to recruit people who have the legal right to work in the US. Getting a degree from a US university does NOT give the right to work in the US. This can be “awkward” for Canadian students who graduate from US universities.

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@chaossorcerer the beauty of college is that you get to take a wider range of courses than high school. I didn’t find my passion until 2nd year, then I still explored a lot by going to career events, clubs, friends, talking to profs at office hours, reading the internet, etc. Definitely wouldn’t have guessed I’d be in this career back in high school, and no regrets.

Admissions in Canada are very transparent. Keep your average (calculated based on the major you’re applying for, not all courses) in the mid 90s and all schools are in reach. I personally didn’t like Hamilton as a city, but I was just there for a weekend. Also I highly suggest living on campus if you can afford it. Or at least away from home. Get out of the high school mind set and learn to live on your own.

imo, for lower gpa students, UofA is the best choice. Even students in the 75ish range can get in, and the school is well recognized.

I’m done school… all 22 years. Working in the US in R&D.

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@bouders @DadTwoGirls @geraniol

Thanks to all of you for the replies!

I’ve mostly been looking at UWaterloo and the University of Toronto, since they rank pretty high in Canada and are close to where I live (around an hour ride to both). What are their advantages/disadvantages and what are they each known for?

From what I’ve heard, U of T has some excellent graduate programs and research, and is also recognized very well abroad, but is notorious for overcrowding and tough grading. How much truth is there to this? UWaterloo seems to be specialized in the sciences and engineering. They also seem to have a great co-op program…how well is this recognized internationally, and what are their grad schools like?

Also, @bouders how did you quote like that?

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Waterloo is very well known in the US for computer science. Hiring managers in high tech companies in the US will know its very strong reputation. Admissions at top schools in the US will know both Waterloo and Toronto, as well as McMaster, Queens, McGill, UBC, and many other of the top schools in Canada.

If you want to consider slightly smaller schools, you might want to look at Guelph and Trent as well. They are not as well known as the larger schools, but I have heard good things about both (particularly the Ontario Veterinary College at U.Guelph, of course). If you live about an hour from Waterloo and an hour from Toronto, I am guessing that you might not be too far from McMaster and Guelph.

I am not sure how to gauge the grade deflation at Toronto. During a visit to Toronto a few years ago several different former students mentioned it to me, including a bartender at a local bar (which I guess might be where one former student ended up, I didn’t get details). The two students who I know who liked Toronto went on to either Stanford or Princeton (one each) and did well there also, which does not speak to the ease of doing well at Toronto.

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@chaossorcerer To do quotes, do this: [ QUOTE ] what you want to quote. [ /QUOTE ] Remove the spaces.

Do not go to Trent, just don’t. Their admissions standards are very low. Guelph is OK but there’s not much going on there. I wouldn’t recommend it for engineering or CS. It would be good for pre-vet. It might be OK for pre-med. Fun fact, the one university that sends the most students to U of T med school is not U of T. It’s McMaster. http://www.md.utoronto.ca/admission-statistics

U of T is not overcrowded. If you think U of T has tough grading, you should see Waterloo’s engineering and CS courses. I have a son in one university and a daughter in the other. Waterloo’s CS courses have an average in the high 60’s. U of T’s CS courses (lower level anyway) are in the high 70’s. Keep in mind that everyone in these programs had an average of 90+ in high school.

There is one building at U of T that seats 1350 students. A couple of courses are scheduled in it. I never was. At U of T, you have complete control over your own schedule. You can totally avoid a massive class. In my daughter’s program at Waterloo, she is given her schedule each term. She has very little control over it.

With U of T’s system, as long as your overall GPA is above 1.7, you’re fine. You can take as many or as few courses as you like for as long as you like. Waterloo’s system is much more complex and depends on exactly which program you are in. Essentially, you have to maintain a certain average to stay in your program and you can only have a certain number of course attempts. After 25 courses, you’re done. Here are the rules for software engineering, for example. http://ugradcalendar.uwaterloo.ca/page/ENG-Examinations-and-Promotions-Rules The rules are different for each program.

Both U of T and UWaterloo have open houses. U of T’s is in the fall. You can visit the buildings, dorms, and listen to presentations. I highly recommend it. https://www.electronicinfo.ca/universities/toronto-st-george/events/79