CC was key to us finding the big merit money. We are so, so lucky! Thank you Google. Thank you College Confidential!
I think it would help, widgetmidget, if you spent a little more time on here. Many posters here have been around for 8, 9,10 years or more. All kind of situations crop up and people are really helpful.
There are students who come on here for help with very difficult situations with family, depression, or health. There are parents who need advice on finances. Problems with roommates, food allergies, 504 plans, getting around cities on visits, you name it. And as intparent says, most of the time, if someone posts about their “dream” of an Ivy, people on this forum help them gain perspective. The knowledge of colleges throughout the country, even the world, on this forum is really wonderful. The “majors” forums have incredible expertise specific to the particular major.
I would like to inject as well, that some Ivy League schools really do offer a great experience and great financial aid. Sometimes I think there is more Ivy bashing on here than Ivy worship, though they may be related : ) That said, tt isn’t evil to want to go to Harvard or wherever. The reasons should be valid, and not just about prestige.
But it is unhealthy to live life during high school with that as some kind of singular goal. Doing anything for a resume for any school is unhealthy. People on this board are the first to advise that.
What I see most often is a student who has “wanted to go to Harvard since age 5” or something like that. Generally these are kids who don’t know a lot about college options and have heard of Harvard. They need more sophistication and CC helps with that. Noone gets paid either.
You’ve worked in admissions. I am sure you have a lot to contribute here.
I don’t care about the prestige. I don’t care about the quality of the education. All I care about is Harvard’s brand name recognition and the connections that graduating from Harvard will get me. How many unemployed lawyers are there in the U.S. right now? Too many to count. Why? They all graduated from winkydink community college law schools or some online law school that has no prestige. People don’t hire someone just because of their work ethic. Connections come first.
That is pretty sad, and I am going to call BS on that. Do you think the only employed people in the country are Harvard grads? And that only Harvard connections count? That is nuts. I happen to know a Harvard grad who graduated Phi Beta Kappa in 2011, is quite personable (so it isn’t a recommendation or personality thing), and she did not get into ONE PhD program in her area of interest. She had to go do a masters, then got into a PhD program. Harvard is not a golden ticket.
The point of college is NOT just to meet people and ride the college name to glory. It is actually to learn – to build skills, learn to analyze and communicate, to gain maturity (hopefully at least partly from mentoring from the professors at your college) that will help you later in the workforce and in graduate school endeavors.
@widgetmidget “I am struck by how obsessed people on this board are with the Ivy League and Top Tier universities.”
That strikes me as analogous to being surprised that espn.com is focused on elite college and professional sports. If you broadly define Top Tier universities, that is essentially what this board is about.
@widgetmidget “This obsession with elite colleges is frankly ruining the high school and college experiences of thousands of students.”
It is true that increased competition is a byproduct of expanding the group of people with access to information about the byzantine world of elite colleges. However, I think that the benefits greatly outweigh the costs. More students aspiring to attend a top college, or any college, and being willing to work to improve their grades and test scores is not a bad thing. In 2015, only 28% of ACT test takers met college readiness standards in English, reading, math and science. In contrast, 31% of ACT test takers had not achieved college readiness in even one of the four subject areas.
I think America needs more students who are working hard to better themselves. Maybe these students aren’t having as great of a high school experience as the failing students, but their future is getting a lot brighter. Whether they end up getting into an elite college or not.
@Much2learn I agree. However my point was that thousands of students–and their parents–seem convinced that it must be an Ivy or top-tier university or nothing, that the key to success is having gone to one of these universities. Nothing could be further from the truth. True, these universities–especially the Ivies–have always endowed a special status but today it is becoming obsessive. People are applying just because of the name (witness the fact that Harvard stated that “several hundred” applicants mentioned in their essay that they were applying to Harvard because it was a “small liberal arts college”.
@menloparkmom You are so very wrong. That statement is even more true of Harvard, Princeton, Amherst, Barnard etc. I don’t think you understand the quote. The reality is that for the highly/hyper-selective universities, if you come from Scarsdale or someplace similar, Adcoms will assume you had every advantage, i.e. the best schools, tutors, money for trips and SAT courses. Therefore they aren’t impressed with stellar statistics.These candidates need much more. Indeed, Adcoms look for excuses to reject such students, whereas if you less impressive statistics from a less “privileged” background, you will have an easier time and the Adcoms will look for a reason to admit you. This reflects a renewed emphasis on trying to make adjustments for the unfair advantages some candidates have.
Looking at the private school I attended, we used to have 50-60% go to the Ivies/Amherst/Swarthmore. That percentage is down to 25% and large percentage of the students who do get in are on FA. This year acceptances from Michigan alone were at record lows; just five years ago it was viewed as a “safety”.
You don’t have to believe me. Ask school counsellors, former admissions officials, even the universities themselves.
@MotherOfDragons Everything I’ve said makes you think that you should bow down to me? I’m not saying that the Ivies are great. Just the opposite. If you don’t like my posts, don’t read them but what I’m saying is no different from what many (most) former Adcom officers have written. The reality is that rising application rates to the Ivies simply means more and more rejected students. I find that heart breaking. And the students who feel “crushed” are not the low income or “stretch” candidates but usually those from professional or affluent backgrounds who have become convinced that they “have what it takes” and, worse yet, that they must go to an elite university or it isn’t worth going.
Interesting aside, the children of most Ivy Group Adcom officers do not wind up going to Ivy institutions.
@compmom We are in total agreement.
I originally started reading CC bc I had an advanced atypical student for whom I was the guidance counselor bc I am a homeschooling parent. We had older kids who were already college grads or in college, but their college searches were different bc they graduated with more typical high school level accomplishments like 100 college level classes completed vs 200 and 300 level classes.
Reading CC was an educational experience. I learned early on to read with complete awareness of elite bias. But, I am 100% thankful that I did spend time here reading and absorbing the knowledge and experiences of numerous posters. It is bc of CC that we learned about CBH and University Scholars at Alabama.
We are like @MotherOfDragons. We are merit-scholarship focused bc we cannot even come close to affording our EFC. So, when I originally read threads where parents were lamenting that their student could not possibly find any intellectual equals on any campuses outside of the top 20 research or LAC schools, I either had to read with rhino hide bc I knew my child was actually functioning at a significantly higher level than the child they were describing or I had to read with awareness and knowledge that the bias on CC is not representative of most of America bc most high performing kids are not from families who are all that college aware or who are in similar financial situations as we are…cannot afford to pay for top schools.
I never intended to become a regular poster on CC, but my ds has been so incredibly blessed by CBH, his professors’ mentoring, and the scholarships from Bama, that I have stayed to pay it forward to help other parents and students who are drowning in the prestige-bias sea and need help finding affordable options. I can share with them that my ds who took 18 hrs both freshman semesters with courses like electromagnetic waves and advanced linear alg is surrounded by great peers and friends, taught by professors who care and reach out to him as mentors, and has wonderful UG research opportunities at a much lower ranked, very generous with scholarship university. The belief that there is a dearth of intellectuals on campuses like Bama’s is simply poster bias.
It did help that our oldest ds was already a chemE who graduated from a small public tech university and has a fabulous career and makes an equivalent salary as any top engineering school grad. I could see through the CC prestige bias to reality bc we had already btdt. That ds was more of your typical strong high school grad, equally as strong of a student as his younger brother, but his course sequence was far more traditional bc he was my homeschool guinea pig.
I am now searching for schools for our equally advanced 11th grader. There are some truly fabulous posters like @MYOS1634 who have gone out of their way to help search for schools that fit her needs (which is proving more difficult than her brother, but we are confident it will all work out in the end, even with her searching for a high merit school.) I can ask questions and be given multiple perspectives to ponder and sort through according to our family’s and child’s needs.
If you read beyond the prestige threads, you will find some really helpful and knowledgable posters who offer thoughtful advice.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek Just because the NPC says you won’t qualify for aid doesn’t mean that this will actually be the case. True, you might not get a Pell Grant but many universities offer need-based FA to higher income groups. I’d encourage you to apply and in the process write to the FA offices documenting your circumstances. You might be surprised.
In my experience in college admissions–and admittedly I only was an Adcom for a couple years after graduating–the only cases where we weren’t able to help was where consumer debt was involved or where the parent refused to complete the CSS. Consumer debt is not considered by most universities but sometimes you can shift this to your mortgage, which is considered. In many cases, other circumstances can be considered.
The other reality is that more and more students are going to graduate school, including for engineering etc. So you could be well advised to have your 11th grader consider your local university and then go to someplace else for graduate school.
Look back on the group of guys I went to HS with, my mate who went to Michigan had a fantastic time and to this day raves about the university. Another friend went to Pitt, did fabulously well and went on to win a Marshall Scholarship to Oxford. He’s now clerking for a Federal judge having graduated from Boalt.
If adcomms a are “looking for reasons” to reject students who were fortunate enough to get a good education and their families had the financial resources for travel and SAT tutors, that’s really sad. There is increasing pressure on retention rates and graduation rates. Research has shown that finances plays heavily into this.
Admission rates from the elite private schools into the Ives may be “down” to 25% from double that, but a 25% admission rate into schools that now have admission rates in the single digits is still 4-5X the norm.
And lastly, IIRC, Michigan was pretty open with the fact that they over-enrolled a few years ago which significantly impacted their acceptances with a correction they chose to do. Can’t recall the exact details of their deferrals for in state vs out of state after the overenrollment, but there should be several threads on this around here.
I have to say, I find these types of dismissive comments frustrating and condescending. They imply the mere mortal student (B/B+ and even A-) need not bother looking far for their school; they just need to settle for their local directional school. (and that maybe the application is such that crayons will do)
For the most part, CC is helpful but I do have to look past comments like this. My daughter wasn’t looking for a top 20/25 school. She was not a stellar student with high stats but she also wasn’t willing to attend the local directional. My own family was similar to the poster I quoted - with probably little to no experience with lesser schools and with high stat kids. When I said my child wasn’t applying to something like, the Ivies and SM, UVa, UNC, my sister said something like “I can’t really help you.” Luckily CC has many types of parents and students; I received a lot of good advice and even specific school suggestions. We found some very good schools with acceptance rates close to or above 50% (Hendrix, New College of Florida, Willamette to name a few) . I would say these schools are harder to find and research than the usual suspects of elite schools.
I agree, there is a focus on the Ivies and other top X elite schools. But there are also many parents who seek ideas for their less-than-perfect but very bright child. Stay around. There are a lot of helpful posters. Some know a lot about HYPMS; others know Amherst, Swarthmore; and still others know schools for NMF scholars. I plan on sticking around to help parents of B/B+ students.
@widgetmidget Our problem is not debt. More like we won’t take on debt bc what little extra we have is going to fund our retirement. The simple reality is that we have a large family. We have 8 kids spread across 21 yrs. (I am a grandmother, but I also have a kindergartner. 
)That equates to 25 yrs of non-stop college attendance with some yrs 2 kids at a time. My dh makes a great income, but we have lived/and still live on it. (Our grocery bill some yrs was greater than our mortgage payment.)
We went through all of the FA “education” hurdles with our older kids. It is clear that what colleges believe we can afford vs the reality we live in are different worlds. Our family size has little impact on FA. Based on what colleges think, sending all of our kids to college x 8 is an affordable $800,000-$1,000,000. Yeah, that is a little beyond our budget. 
But, no, FA offices cannot bridge the gap between what formulas say we can afford and “the room and board” max budget that is our kids’ reality. That is why merit scholarships are such a blessing.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek I wish I could say you are wrong, but you aren’t. I think you have been wise as there is nothing worse than having a child have their heart set on a university and then be told it is unaffordable. Indeed, one stream of my OP was lost along the way: it is never good when a student gets their heard set on a particular university as in the vast majority of cases that ends in tears (or, later, on a particular job).
@SlackerMomMD A student with a B+ average is still highly competitive at the vast majority of colleges, including most outstanding ones. The key is to look for universities that don’t use Index scores and that will take the time to really review your application.
@jym626 Your comment that graduation and retention correlates with financial status is of course true but that is one reason that many top tier universities have developed programs for first generation, URM and students from lower income groups. The research I have seen LACs and the Ivy Group has shown that students on FA graduate at the same rate as those from non-FA families. Indeed, we found that those students were far better at time management than other students.
Admissions is inherently subjective but it is hard not to be impressed by the kid who had to work to support his family and still managed to get a 3.7, or the student who self-studied for APs and managed to get all 3s and 4s.
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“As for bargain hunting, no Ivy education is a bargain. You’ll only get substantial financial aid if you are relatively poor (with the possible exception of Harvard). Each year we had hundreds of students decline their offers because their families would not or could not meet their EFCs. When I spoke to them, I often heard, “but we thought your financial aid was generous”. It is, but not for people with incomes over $100K.”
“Just because the NPC says you won’t qualify for aid doesn’t mean that this will actually be the case. True, you might not get a Pell Grant but many universities offer need-based FA to higher income groups. I’d encourage you to apply and in the process write to the FA offices documenting your circumstances. You might be surprised.”
So, @widgetmidget - which one is it?
BTW, my son’s Top 20 LAC (need based FA only) cost us $80k for 4 years - exactly what it would have cost us to send him to a SUNY where he would have gotten no FA. The closest merit aid school (about 40ish ranking points behind) gave him $10k less a year ($40k vs $30k.) We are a one income one kid family and that income was approx $125k/year. He just graduated last May so I am not talking ancient history here.
I considered $40k a year in need based aid with no loans extremely generous for that income.
In fact, for most students the need based FA schools are the most financially generous - even for people whose incomes are over $100k.
S wasn’t even one of the super stats/super EC kid - he was a 30ACT, band, XC, not even top 10% in class kind of kid.)
@emilybee When I was referring to “substantial” financial aid, I meant GRANT aid that covered most of the total COA. I’ve known many universities that count loans as FA, and many others don’t meet full need.
If you were able to cover $20K a year, we wouldn’t have classified you as high need.
I don’t think there is any obsession with ivies amongst the more active posters, and if anything there is a bias against top tier schools. I remember one thread where a family was deciding between Penn and a state school. People responded saying something like “Congratulations, I see your son has made his decision and I hope he has fun at [state school],” as if no one would ever choose Penn if they could go a state school. I think the son ended up deciding on Penn, for a variety of reasons that included cost.