CCM and Arizona cutting practices?

College Majors Visual Arts and Film Majors
1

<p>Does anyone know whether the theater-acting program at CCM has hefty cutting practices. I did a CC search and though the question/issue was raised, it was not addressed. Also, most comments had to do with their MT program and not their drama/acting program.</p>

<p>Re: University of Arizona: Over the past two years CCers have noted the rather odd cutting practices at Arizona - what I refer to as the 'professional sports model' --- if the '08' recruiting class is really hot, accept more and cut students (yes, they are students; not professional actors, at least when housed within an educational institution) accepted, say, in 07 and 06. Has Arizona altered these practices?</p>

<p>My S wants to apply to both programs, but would like to know about their 'organizational behavior' as educators housed within the 'academy'.</p>

<p>We may go ahead and apply to DePaul, given that they are at least up-front about why/when/how much they cut.</p>

2

<p>Good question. I would not be at all surprised to learn that both CCM and UA's drama depts cut straight actors in the same way that they do MTs. I mean, why would MTs be a special case? But, of course, let's hope you hear from someone here who actually knows. I think that the raison d'etre behind these cuts is that it supposedly allows the universities/conservatories to select a large (relatively) number of students who shine in their auditions and then watch them carefully over time and cut those who, for whatever reason, are not up to snuff in the program directors' views. From what some students have told us here and elsewhere, however, it is sometimes hard to tell why certain students are cut. I think it was two years ago that a young woman who was reportedly earning "A's" at Arizona learned she wouldn't be asked back. To me, a parent, the whole idea of a kid who is working hard and earning A's getting cut seems, well, not acceptable. It seems to me to go against the whole purpose of a college, which is to accept qualified students and take them as far as they can go in four years, provided the students are working hard and making progress. But, of course, different people feel different ways about this, and let's face it: nobody believes he or she will ever be the one cut.:)</p>

3

<p>NotMamaRose: I read a few posts about Arizona's practices. Do you or does anyone else know how fair the cutting practices are (even in MT) at CCM.
I have a theory as to why there are weird cutting practices in Theater. First, most of the faculty do not have PhDs, which means that they have never gone through that 4-5 year process in which they are being 'professionalized' for professorships/educators. The MFA student does not experience this. Yes, they learn the craft, but not the complexities of the academy, as an institution with a long history. They identify as much, likely more, with the practices (good and bad) of the profession of theater than they do with higher education. Certainly other applied programs are similarly rigorous so as to weed out people who should not enter thepr profrssion/guild - nursing, pharmacy, engineering, business, medicine, etc. But these programs do not deploy the arcane proceedure used by some theater programs. The Nursing, Business, etc. faculty that I have talked with find the stories about Depaul and Arizona bizarre. By the way, an interesting insight into my argument can be gained by reading the recent histoty of nursing - it used to be that BSNs and MSNs were the professors; now most are PHds. That evolution has transformed, for the good, educational and professional practices because those with Phds have been trained in a much different way than those with MSNs. The same principle applies to hiring PHds in Business instead of seasoned execs with MBAs. In general, the former is much better than the latter (good war stories, but after that ---).
I think that some of these theater practices should be scrutinized by the apptopriate committees within their institutions. The faculty in theater depts. should also reflect upon the obvious: we are talking about graduating actors, etc; not nurses, bridge designers, and pharmacists. Who is going to be hurt by an underpar theater grad? Granted, selecting for MT and acting talent is not easy, but then again, other applied programs face even harder obsticles, as there is no auditions/resume - just academic stats. Selection is a dismal science. The purpose of educational institutions is to do the best with what you have. That's why we become professors. That's what separates the good from the bad profs. Further, we, as tax payers and tuition payers, put substantial money on the table. To cut someone who has put tens of thousands on the table, though their grades are good, borders on corruption. Perhaps not comparable to taking gack the car you just (in equivalent dollars) just bought from them, but it is nothing to be proud of, and, at a minimum (hopefully), keeps these people from sleeping at night. Alas, many academics and particularly 'academic artists' live under the illusion that they are engaged in saintly labor, thus immune from the consequences of their practices. Also, we should not forget the Groucho Marx joke; those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach, teach phys ed. - self-depricating humor.
The argument that the pressure of cutting is good because it reflects the pressures of the real world of theater is hogwash; it's a lazy response that suggests that the members in the Department are incapable of sitting down with each other to devise more rational and ethical practices.
Between my wife and myself, we have 40 years in academia, many of those in 2 institutions with ivy-level acting/MT programs. We teach in other applied areas, and would never accept such practices in our Depts.
CC serves as a great information source, but I wish there was more 'comsumer' (like consumer reports) reporting. Yhis would force these programs to be more reflexive and transparent. Fortunately, as pointed out by some of the more aggressive voives on CC, to some degree, students and parents are boycotting these programs. They have pointed out that very talented students are applying elsewher, due to retention practices that can be interpreted as inconsistent with the spirit and values of higher education.
Note that, as an educator, I believe in transparancy. It's why I use my name as my username. Sorry, but I am an old 60s radical who has concluded that, in some respects, the academy is a less humane institution than the corporate and military organizations I have served in.</p>

4

<p>The best thing to do is to call them up. Somewhere I remember someone telling me that because they are so hard to get into, CCM doesn't have as strong a cut policy as other music/theater programs,but I could have them mistaken with another institution. Call them up and ask. The will tell you.</p>

5

<p>Brian, reading about your philosophy as far as cut programs go (I feel likewise), implies to me that your son (depending on HIS comfort level with such cut policies) should reconsider applying to schools that cut based on talent and/or numbers. From all I know of UArizona and CCM (and DePaul, which you mention, too) do cut students. Their policies and processes may differ but they are all considered cut programs. And yes, I personally know students at CCM for both MT and Acting, and the school does cut in both areas. Fab program but you must know that going into it. My kid did not want a cut program of this nature and opted out of applying even though the program is well regarded. Reading what you wrote and inferring your personal opinions of this approach, makes me question why you would then want your child to apply. It seems like you feel strongly on this issue. Obviously it is up to your son. Of course, if he is comfortable with such policies and practices, there is NOT a problem with applying. But go into it fully informed. </p>

<p>While taxguy says you can call the school....and you can.....the statement they may give may not be entirely the way it plays out in practice. You may wish to talk to actual students. Students DO get cut from CCM and they DO get cut from UArizona's programs (as well as DePaul's). Each school goes about it differently and you can explore these variations but the bottomline is, if your child attends one of these programs, he may not get to finish it.</p>

<p>I want to be clear that I am NOT telling others to NOT apply to these programs. To the contrary, I am currently advising students who ARE applying to CCM. My comments are SOLELY in light of your comments about being against cuts. Knowing THAT, I commented that you may wish to reconsider these schools or to make sure you are comfortable with these policies and be fully aware going into it.</p>

6

<p>Brian -- I assume that the upper administrators at the institutions with cut practices have reviewed these practices, and approve of them. No, graduating an actor who is not considered up to par does not have dire consequences (unlike graduating a brain surgeon who is not performing to expectations... please do cut him/ her! :)), but the reputation of these programs relies upon the quality of their graduates. The schools that are using a cut policy must believe that this is the way to maintain the quality of their graduates. Also -- some universities require the department to have a certain number of students to maintain funding and faculty lines. Sometimes this number is higher than can be accommodated in upper level performance classes, senior showcase, etc... the cut policy schools may be using this as a way to keep their numbers up overall, and also be able to provide more individualized training and experiences for their upperclassmen.</p>

<p>Many schools that do not have cut policies find other ways to do this that allow students to still graduate from the department. Syracuse, for example, evaluates students at the sophomore year and only some are allowed to go on to upper level acting and MT performance classes. The others switch to the BS track. They also audition students for slots in the senior showcase.</p>

<p>I am sure that the schools that have cut policies think they are educationally positive..... perhaps the idea is "this is a cut throat business, so we are going to set up a cut throat educational environment to prepare them for success." They also seem to be fairly upfront about the fact that they do cut students, even if it is not entirely clear under what exact criteria.</p>

<p>I personally do not like the cut system model... but, that is why I teach in a BA Musical Theatre program that purposely keeps the numbers low in order to be able to offer individualized attention and opportunities over all four years of training. </p>

<p>The schools mentioned that do have cut policies are (obviously) very, very good schools, and I do not presume to say that one type of school is better than another. Just that one type of program may be better for one particular student than another particular student.</p>

<p>I think if someone chooses to go to a school with a cut system they have to be completely aware and comfortable with the idea that they may be forced to transfer to another institution. With BFA programs this may mean taking an entire year off from school (depending on when the students are notified that they have been cut), and adding additional years to the amount of time in undergrad, because most BFA programs want students to go through at least three years of their training program (if not all four). </p>

<p>There are so many strong Bachelor's degree programs that do not have a cut policy, it seems as if a student (or family) who is really concerned about this possibility might be happier at a school without a cut system. </p>

<p>Good Luck!</p>

7

<p>Thanks taxguy (that was your great thread a number of months back about breaking the bank to go to an expensive 'arts' school?) and soozievt.
My S and I just spent two hours narrowing our list and decided to eliminate those programs that aggressively cut. We may go with DePaul because, if we were to get in and get tuition exchange, we would not lose much money if he had to move on after one year. Please note that we have no qualms about cutting because of GPA, lack of attendence, noncollaborative disposition, and unwillingness to do the grunt work on productions. As a parent, I like this military-like surveillance, as at least I know the program is not tolerating slacking and it is trying to close the door to all the unmentionable behaviors that go on at any college. What I object to are aggressive jury systems in which some 'personality cult' is guiding the decision making process -i.e., 'well, you were unable to capture the essence of Brecht's intent/character'; you can not stay. For those academics out there, you know what I mean when I suggest, as entitled in a recent book "Why Smart People Do Stupid Things', that academics are a strange lot (we get along well worse than medical specialists): that there is a lot of ego-positioning (since there is little economic capital the fight is over symbolic capital) that goes on. Other forms of organization are far more rational.
I have no idea how many BFA theater admissions people/directors check out CC to see what people are saying. Some certainly do and some have blessed us with very helpful information about the process (i.e., Dr. John; forgot the name of person from JM). It would be interesting to collect all the statement re: cutting posted on the arts and MT threads and to initiate a comprehensive conversation about the topic so as to provide accurate information about what programs are doing and to suggest to programs more efficient, effective and fair practices. There are plenty of corporate, academic, counseling, etc. specialists out there that could assist programs in managing this 'meat market' - obviously a buyer's market, which is why programs are not all that motivated to alter bad practices.
By the way, I apologize if I sometimes rant. I am on leave this semester because I an undergoing chemotherapy; its 'chemofog' with a lot of time on my hands. My sentence structure, as well as cognitive structure sometimes goes astray.</p>

8

<p>KatMT: my S is going to visit Bennington College, a very unique LAC that allows students to focus exclusively on acting, directing, playwriting, contemporary poitics, if they wish to do so. There are more acting courses provided there than provided at many BFA prorams. My S may decide to go here and then pursue an MFA. This option is 'growing' on him. His question this AM was a good one; what do I do if I get into Bennington - tuition exchange college (with money left to eventually get an MFA) versus getting into a fantasy BFA program with no money left for grad school. We are getting down to the 'brass tacks'.</p>

9

<p>Brian, wishes and thoughts going your way regarding a healthy recovery. By the way, KatMT is the rep posting here from JMU. </p>

<p>I do not think these programs are worried one bit about what you, I, or anyone else think of cuts. They have their philosophy for their own reasons. It is not a secret that this is a possiblity if you attend these schools. Anyone who applies to a specialized program that requires you to be admitted directly into it, needs to explore it fully....not just talk to faculty but to current students, alum, etc. </p>

<p>For example, CCM is one of the top programs in MT. They are not hurting for applicants. Yes, there are some very qualified MT students who will choose to not apply to CCM due to their philosophy and practices. But there are enough who do. CCM wants to protect their reputation in the industry and only present a certain level of talent in their showcase. There are other ways, however. They could require an audition to get into the showcase. They require an audition to be admitted to their BFA programs and hopefully selected those who they feel are talented enough. My view is that as long as someone is doing the work, getting good grades, putting in effort to improve, that this is about an education. Yes, they guide the student if they feel the student may be redirected to something else if the student is not really progressing with the skill sets talent wise. (such as is done at a place like Syracuse or Emerson or Ithaca....which is not like having to leave the school with no place to go like at CCM after it is too late to apply elsewhere....) But there is not a great harm if the student graduates and doesn't make it as an actor. There are no guarantees even for those who get to stay in the program. I think the school is there to nurture the growth of the student. They can be guided as to a more appropriate path if that is advisable but if they are putting out 100% and have a good work ethic but just are not as talented as the program likes to see, I think they should get to remain and finish their education. The atmosphere created when one is at fear of having to leave even if putting out the effort, is not as conducive to learning and collaborating as some might prefer. It is not for all people. Others are fine with that approach. </p>

<p>Your son has to decide for himself. From what I know of DePaul's cut system (by numbers...finite number no matter the talent in that class) and of UArizona's system (which includes cutting current students if they have transfers and internal transfers they like better after a year or two), I know my kid would not opt to apply to such programs. But that is NOT to say they are not FINE programs....they all have very good reputations. It is a matter of selecting the learning environment that most closely aligns with your own college search criteria. I don't think these schools are going to change their ways as they are successful at what they do. If you don't like their ways, there are lots of other fine programs that may align with your own criteria or educational philosophy.</p>

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<p>Brian, regarding your post #8...and I do think this has come up in threads with your son's situation before.....your son doesn't need grad school with a BFA which is a terminal degree. Your son has the option of doing a BA + MFA path (a great path, such as with Bennington) or a BFA. But if he does a BFA, he may not need grad school. Both a BFA and an MFA are professional degree programs. That may change how you look at the options. You could spend the money on a BFA and be done with it. Or he could go to a tuition exchange BA school and spend the money on the MFA school. Sounds like two viable options to me. But I don't see it as you do that if you spend money on a BFA, then he may not be able to get an MFA. If he really really sees an MFA in his future, he may wish to then consider a BA path for now.</p>

11

<p>Brian, I am sorry to hear you are having health challenges, and know that all of us on CC are sending good thoughts your way. I wish we could do more.
Re: the cut systems. As soozievt points out, the programs which cut students obviously think that their way is the best way, which is why they continue to do it. If you think about it, it does benefit those programs in a way, even if it is tough on students. After all, those programs get to choose (and I am pulling numbers here out of thin air!) 50 promising kids which the teachers can then work with/watch over time and then pick the ones they find most promising, like the most, think have what it takes, etc. Other than the fact that, once a kid is cut, he or she may go on discussion lists like this and complain, it's basically all good for the program. And while I am sure there are students who thrive in that kind of environment, I cannot help but wonder what effect it really has on students. Don't creative people/actors need to feel comfortable and safe in order to take chances, try new things, etc.? Part of trying new things is risking failure. It must be darned hard to risk failure when you know you might be cut the next year for doing so! It would just seem to me to be counterproductive, and I guess quite a few programs agree with that, because they have done away with cut programs in recent years. Like you and others here, I would strongly encourage my own kid not to audition for a program known to cut people. Despite what people would like to think, college (even for acting and MT) is NOT the "real world." It's supposed to get the kids ready for the real world. End of NMR rant!!! :) (And Brian, best wishes again for your continued recovery.)</p>

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<p>NMR...as you likely know, I agree with all of your points. School is for education. I also believe that such cut policies and processes affect the atmosphere in the program. It can encourage competitiveness and quell the drive to take risks. It is different than a sense of being nurtured, encouraged, and supported by both faculty and peers. For SOME kids in such an atmosphere, it affects them even though they personally are NOT cut. It can take its toll. I have seen it and I have seen some kids leave cut programs who were not cut. All BFA programs have some attrition and so cut programs are not unique, of course, in that some choose to leave. One needs to look into the overall climate at a program and if that will dovetail with their own learning process.</p>

13

<p>CCM's acting program does not have a cut program. They do have an annual review in March. Students who are not meeting the grade requirements can be cut. My S and I were on campus this past March on the students first day back after the cuts. He attended a freshman and a junior class that day. While all were sad to see students asked to leave the program none were suprised at who was cut. Differenet than we understand DePaul's cut program there is not a number of students identified to be cut each year. In fact CCM's acting has had years where no students were cut. As I have read the postings this is no different than Syracuse and many other programs. CCM is establishing an acting department that is top level program.</p>

14

<p>Notmamarose, edean and others. Given that I have the time, I just re-read all the threads re: Arizona, and other cutters. The discussion was excellent and therefore there is probably no need to hit all the points again. But, on the other hand, Notmamarose states what is most obvious, yet rarely stated. To paraphrase in my language, and as a college prof who produces business leaders, by the way, married to a college prof who produces Psychiatric nurses: nobody is hurt by retaining someone who is an underpar performer. I am concerned that the oncologist and nurse treating me now is competent, and I wish med and nursing schools engaged in cutting - they do not, except through the grading system (which includes clinical grades). Who is hurt by a so-so singing voice or someone who just can't do the classical acting gig. To say that we can cut because we are a 'professional acting' program holds no weight. The responsibility of professors is to work with the material that sits with them in the classroom. The responsibility of those engaged in admissions is to otimize the talent sitting in the classes. Justifications for cutting (outside of grades and contribution) seems to be based upon an unwarranted grandiosity by those who claim for themselves the title, 'artist' (we are all just artisans, some finer than others). The venture of universities is education, development, and, yes, advice as to what talents a student may or may not have. Obviously, every program wants to enhance its reputation and competitive position relative to the programs it 'competes with. Arizona wants to be mentioned in the same breath with the top three 'ivies'. My college wants to be mentioned in the same breath with Williams. Neither will 'get there' in these days of information exchange through austere practices, particularly when those practices are subsidized by those who are currently or potentially subjected to them. The core mission; education. We can only assume that post-education success is a function of what we accomplish via selection and education. To obtain better placements by cutting the supposedly weak, is corrupt, from an educator's point of view. It's like ENRON. They motivated employees through their rank and yank system. Cut 20% of each cohort each year. Look what such 'competitive' practices did for them.</p>

<p>This is merely MY opinion; NOT MY SON"S, who would cherish the competitiveness of a cut system. He was a nationally ranked fencer and all-county 165 pound noseguard (football/lineman) that went up against linemen that weighed twice as much. He likes the pressure. The only thing I would worry about is that he could go 'Sean Penn' on someone who violated his sense of fairness and justice in a cut system - no violence, but he would call a spade a spade. I would be disappointed in him if he did otherwise.</p>

15

<p>Hi Brian -- I hope that you and your S have a terrific trip to Bennington. I used to live not too far from there when I was in upstate, NY north of Albany. I love that part of the country... and Bennington is beautiful. They offer such a unique undergraduate environment. I think that many students from Bennington go on to top notch graduate programs in acting. </p>

<p>My mom went through chemo a year and 1/2 ago. I was fortunate enough to be freelancing at that time, and got to go home a lot during that time. She often would talk about the "chemo fog". It is so counterintuitive that medicine that is helping can make you feel so sick at the time. You are in my thoughts.</p>

<p>Kate</p>

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<p>Thanks KatMT> I say a lot of negative things about the academy in my posts; my scholastic guru is the late Pierre Bourdieu. Yet, I am grateful that the benefits are excellent and humane; semester off with full pay. I will get through it. In fact, I am slowly beginning to lift weights and engage in aerobic conditioning for next year's Ironman.
I looked on JM's web and was surprised at how reasonable out-state tuition is.
Bennington is a strange place. My son has grown up in Lancaster County with its horse and buggies and everything. It will be interesting to see how he reacts.</p>

17

<p>Ironman... that's terrific! Best of luck.</p>

<p>JMU's out of state tuition is very reasonable for out of state students. I do not know what kind of scholarships are offered by the university. But, in theatre and dance we seem to have a larger number of out of state students who have some form of financial aid. Our department also has scholarships for continuing students in the program... meaning we do not have scholarships for incoming freshmen, but all students in the program can apply for scholarships that kick in sophomore year.</p>

<p>Bennington is different. I went to Penn State for Grad School, so I am fairly familiar with the Lancaster area.... Bennington is certainly different. Actually the Shendandoah Valley (with the large Mennonite community here) feels a little more like the Lancaster area. </p>

<p>I hope that you have a great trip to VT!</p>

<p>Kate</p>

18

<p>Okay, apologies upfront if this has been answered before and I missed it. Say you get cut after your sophmore or junior year. Do you stay at the school and change majors? Do you god forbid have to leave the school? Because of changes in requirements, would you normally take longer to graduate? As you can tell, I'm kind of confused!</p>

19

<p>Frankly, I wouldn't worry about anyone's cut policy. Even if a school doesn't have a formal cut policy, your kid will know that they need to change majors if they don't get picked for the leads in most shows.
This happened to one of my daughter's friends at Maryland. Maryland has a no- cut policy in musical theater. However, she never got any lead or top roles in shows that I am aware of at Maryland. She finally got the message that musical theater isnt' for her. Each school will have its own way of cuting people either formally or, as with Maryland, informally.</p>

20

<p>I respectfully disagree, taxguy. I think there are plenty of very talented kids who do not get the lead roles in any of the shows produced in their college BFA programs and go out into the world and find that they are quite commercially viable as actors and performers. You have to remember that when a kid is admitted to a by-audition program (especially at the most prestigious/toughest schools), he or she is suddenly competing for roles with others who are just as talented as he or she is. In other words, a kid who might have always been the lead in his high school shows is suddenly in a pool of talent with others who were the leads in their shows. Everyone cannot be the lead or get a top role; there are more ensemble roles than any other roles in any given production. (In fact, there are more ensemble roles to be gotten in the real world, too.) Of course, if a kid gets into a program and finds herself or himself struggling to keep up and is earning bad grades, etc., well, then that's a different story. But I posit that a talented kid could go through an entire BFA or BA program and never be the star and still go out and make a decent living as an actor. Also, does Maryland have a musical theater major? I thought Maryland offered a BA in theater arts, and concentrated mostly on straight acting, though some musicals certainly are produced.</p>