Cfa

Colleges and Universities A-Z Air Force Academy - Colorado Springs
141

<p>Sorry, off topic, but can I ask a question about a quote from above?</p>

<p>bulletandpima:
"Keep in mind as you see the list grow, don't worry, the AFA cannot give an appt out until everybody from that source has their packet in. I.E. you have yours in in Nov., but somebody from your source didn't complete it until Feb. 15th, you will have to wait."</p>

<p>Can someone go in deapth into this? Does this include LOA kids?</p>

<p>(I think I know the answer, but it can't hurt to get a better idea...)</p>

142

<p>LOA kids are tricky though. They DO NOT count towards a MOCs slate, so once they submit your name, you are in. No if, ands, or buts.</p>

143

<p>LOA's MAY not count against a MOC - but they CAN be charged to the MOC (stated differently, it is not REQUIRED that they be charged but the SA CAN charge them to the MOC). It is very complicated. If MOC submits a purely unranked slate, the SA will charge the highest WCS to the MOC (often that is an LOA). Often MOCs thus submit a principal (that is not an LOA) thereby assuring that their LOA is not charged to the MOC thus opening up a spot for a second (or more) appointees in their district.</p>

<p>On the other point, it is partially correct that the SA won't make appointments until the whole slate has complete files, except that if the MOC submits a principal nominee and that principal nominees file is complete - the appointment will be submitted right away. If MOC submits a totally unranked list, the SA will wait for all applicants on the slate to complete their file (or the deadline to pass) before they determine that MOCs appointee (because the WCS of the candidates on the slate can change). LOA's may get a quicker appointment (because they are going to get one sooner or later - the only question for the SA is who they will be charged to). The appointee will rarely find out who they are actually "charged" to, and it really doesn't matter. Often the SA will not have who's charged to whom figured out until very late, well after appointments go out ... the MOC may not know who is charged to them until much later - which accounts for one (of many) reasons the MOC will typically treat all appointees as their own (in press releases, appointment presentations etc. all appointees in the district will typically be recognized, even Presidential noms).</p>

144

<p>And to add to those of you who are worried about a low score on the SAT, while you can over come it with a good score on the ACT, one test might be better for you than the other. My own MIRACLE story (I say miracle because it truely was) was the fact that I SUCK at math. I'm in a college Level Calculus course this year, and i'm gettin 4 college credits for it but I still am stayin after and talkin to the the teacher ALOT. I was horrible at the ACT, so i stuck with the SAT. In total, i took the SAT 5 times. The reason, was though I had 600's and up in the Verbal sections, I had, in the first 4 times, gone from a 500 to a 510 in math. I STUDIED ALOT of SAT math and learned HOW to do the question, not just how to do the math. I got a 630 the 5th time i took it and i was seriously SHOCKED i did so well. I didn't see it coming, i was expecting maybe a 560 or so, but i got it up to the 630. So if your math scores are not up, invest the money in some books for the SAT, or ACT, and keep trying. they all say to take it multiple times. In my case, it worked.
Now in AZ's case, ya...Uh, does WOW work for ya? I got several friends there and went to NASS and such but ya, i guess after lookin at that list of Accomplishments, (though many of us have something similar i would imagine, i know i do;) ) all i can think of to say is just ...DO WORK!! :D
but really, this is my two cents as far as SAT's go. Spending that extra time studying truely does work.</p>

145

<p>In the end, the reality maybe a lot different than you think.</p>

<p>F22, you should look at the curriculumn that is required, because if Math is a weakness now take you advice and get a tutor. Even though you are in college level Calc now, you will be sent warp speed next yr. I have attached the curriculum for a major in HISTORY....notice this is not a math/science program, but is loaded with courses that will require a strong Math background.</p>

<p>Air</a> Force Academy - Majors</p>

<p>I only state this because too many kids come with the thought that if I get a History degree comparing to another University, they believe that they won't need Math/Science and nothing could be further from the truth. Add into the factor that you will be a "working" student (waking up at a set time, PT intramural sports, dinner at a set time, etc), which will leave less time for studying. I truly believe that many candidates are more wrapped up in getting in than what you will need to stay in. I am pretty sure that Astro Eng 410 will require a strong Math background. </p>

<p>Every candidate should have 2 goals...First get in, Second graduate.</p>

<p>As far as AZ his GPA in an IB program and his EC's helped him, plus the fact that English is his second language. The AFA can look at the SAT and say it was an English barrier b/c a 3.94 is a solid gpa.</p>

<p>Check out the academic scores...also if you google the AFA Class of 10,11,12 you will get a strong sense of the student that is accepted, be honest and realize that when you attend the SA you will be competing against these people and because they are academically advanced the courses go much faster...we have 2 friends that are instructors at the AFA...they will tell you that they don't wait for the 1 or 2 cadets that can't grasp it...they cover the material and it is your responsibility to get it under your belt. Look at how the classes trim down every yr. Typically, @25% of the class will not graduate, I am assuming that a large % is due to academic probation and nobody wants to be one of them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Students who score below 580 verbal and 560 math on the SAT Reasoning and below 24 English/reading and 25 math/science reasoning on the ACT normally will not be competitive for an appointment. </p>

<p>SAT Mid-50% Range Mean
Critical Reading/Verbal 600-680 642
Math 630-690 663 </p>

<p>ACT Mid-50% Range Mean
English 27-31 29
Reading 28-31 30
Mathematics 28-32 30
Science Reasoning 27-31 29

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am not trying to be discouraging, although I know it will probably read that way, what I am trying to do is make people understand the CFA is the least of the criteria to concern yourself with...prepping yourself academically to give an edge is more important. If you are not close to the mean than it is time to hit the books</p>

<p>Also what Raimius eluded to was you can also be put in the sight of the scope for not being fit.</p>

<p>Momofhopeful is correct there are MOC's that give principal, but it is not the common place. I know NC Senators do not nor did our Cong., so it became the waiting game. 1 person on DS's slate did not complete/hand in until the last day (Feb. 29th), so the slate for both Sens did not go up until March.</p>

<p>Finally here is the Class of 11's stats from the AFA website

[quote]
**The Class of 2011 includes 84 (6 percent) students who graduated No. 1 in their high school class; 116 (9 percent) were class presidents; 1,148 (88 percent) were sports team captains; and 1,252 (96 percent) were varsity sport letter winners....The high school grade point average for the Class of 2011 is 3.85. College entrance score averages are: SAT Critical Reading: 624; SAT Math: 653; ACT English: 27.9; ACT Math: 28.7.

[/quote]
**</p>

<p>Remember to look on the AFA website to see what they put as your gpa, b/c it maybe different than you think do to weighting grades.</p>

146

<p>
[quote]
too many kids come with the thought that if I get a History degree comparing to another University, they believe that they won't need Math/Science

[/quote]

Too many? seriously, I doubt it.
Pima, you are scaring the poor kid.</p>

<p>The Service academies will NOT admit a student who is incapable of graduating. period. Do some have to work harder than others? sure - that is the case everywhere. Yes, everyone takes math and science but there is plenty of additional instruction and help.<br>
A 75% graduation rate is actually quite high and I seriously doubt 25% are flunking out. Sure kids have trouble with academics but they have trouble with the military lifestyle as well as staying in shape. Kids leave for all kinds of reasons, not all academics. There is plenty of stress all around but at the AFA you get passes nearly every weekend and can escape.</p>

<p>If you are not athletic and having trouble doing reasonably well on the CFA you may have a difficult time. First you have to get through Beast - which will get you in shape but won't be any fun if you are out of shape - that true Ramius?
You also increase the likelyhood in serious injury which can cause you to be turned back.</p>

<p>After Beast you have to pass a physical fitness test each semester. Failing this test can get you expelled.</p>

147

<p>I agree the SA's will not admit a student who is incapable of graduating. No university does. However, I do feel that many candidates haven't done enough investigation to understand what courses are mandatory and what their life will be truly like. If you are weak in MA/SCI, it might not be the right fit for you, especially if you are in a class where the majority have taken AP/IB and scored over 700 on the SAT in MA.</p>

<p>Am I scarying them...probably! Do I feel bad about it ...NO! I would rather scare the crap out of them and give a realistic look, than say it won't be that hard. I can count on both of my hands and at least one of my feet, kids that I know who were on academic probation(current and past grads). </p>

<p>Sure there is academic help, but let's give more realism. Here is the typical life at the AFA</p>

<p>
[quote]
Cadet Schedule</p>

<p>Cadets have four 55-minute periods each morning and three each afternoon.
Breakfast and lunch are mandatory formations and after classes you’ll participate in mandatory athletic activities.
Unless you’re an intercollegiate athlete, you’ll play on an intramural team two afternoons a week, after classes.
Many Saturday mornings are spent studying or attending parades and inspections, but Saturday afternoons and Sundays are typically free time.
The fall and spring semesters last 17 weeks each and the summer term lasts 10 weeks.
Instead of a three-month summer break, you’ll have three weeks.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So besides @7 hrs of class, mandatory formations, cleaning your room, hrs of mandatory athletics and intramurals, you will need to find time to complete 7 classes of homework and get extra study time...not an easy feat.</p>

<p>I would rather scare a candidate and make them think twice than have a cadet who is going for the wrong reasons. For the AFA I can't count high enough the amt of times I hear or read the reason why is to get a pilot slot. That shouldn't be the reason. Getting the best education and experience should be the reason. Nobody will be able to predict if they will ever get wings, the road ahead is many yrs ahead at best and graduating does not mean you will get that dream. Pipelines are closing up, UPT and FTU are difficult, at SUNT they told Bullet look left and look right only 1 of you will be left standing. Out of a class of over 100, only 6 got fighters. Out of FTU 1 of the 13 was FEB'd. </p>

<p>I never said I wasn't blunt or idealistic, I am just rying to make sure that every cadet has seen the good, bad and the ugly. As taxpayers we are supporting these SAs it would be ashame if they didn't have a dose of reality by making sure they have all of the facts.</p>

<p>The CFA plays a factor of getting in and yes, you must pass the test, but it will nit keep you in...your academic ability will.</p>

148

<p>
[quote]
First you have to get through Beast - which will get you in shape but won't be any fun if you are out of shape - that true Ramius?
You also increase the likelyhood in serious injury which can cause you to be turned back.
After Beast you have to pass a physical fitness test each semester. Failing this test can get you expelled.

[/quote]

BCT may increase fitness. More precisely, it will increase certain aspects of personal fitness. BCT does different things to people with different body types. Cadets who were used to lifting weights in the gym usually saw decreases in strength, but increases in endurance. I saw a slight increase in upper body strength, but no real improvement in running or sit-ups. It is different for everyone.<br>
Failing the PFT/AFT is a serious problem (more so the PFT, as it is 50% of the PE grade). I failed the first one (badly), then failed again (almost as badly). I was looking at a strong potential of disenrollment. However, being lazy about deleting e-mails as I am, I still had a record which said I had been sick the week before the second PFT. When the person in charge of recondo asked me if there were any mitigating circumstances for the second score, I told him about being very sick prior to the test and sent him the Form 18 e-mail. Since I had been sick, AD allowed me to take the make-up PFT. I did well enough on that one to prevent a PERC (review committee for possible disenrollment). </p>

<p>So, yes, fitness is important. It is one of the lesser weighted concerns, but don't neglect it! That being said, my CFA was on the low side, but my academics more than made up for it, in the WCS. Concentrate on academics, but don't neglect other areas.</p>

149

<p>Wow, need to address some stuff here.

incorrect. Two parts to this. Plenty come thinking they can do a fuzzy and get by. Many of these don't make it. Two: many come in planning to do engineering, especially EE, Astro, Aero, Mech and CANNOT hack the math at the 4dig and 3dig level. They drop to a fuzzy major like history or management and STILL get smashed by the math in things like EE, astro, aero, and the straight math **core **course. </p>

<p>

Doesn't necessarily get you in shape, that is up to the person. Raimius hit some of the points. Some people are content with always breaking and not using PT time to really improve. Then, there are those that stop working out and still eat like they're in BCT afterwards and quickly begin struggling (My 4dig roomie was one of these, he was kicked out for failing athletics at the beginning of this year, a current 2dig in my squad can't run more than a quarter mile without stopping now, cost the squad during comm's challenge). </p>

<p>

They should be scared. A candidate from the average high school in the US will need to stay beefed up heavily in classes and ready to be shocked. I'd say >75% didn't study until they got here and many have been shocked and then happy to get a 2.75 GPA after getting >3.8 in high school! Not always the case, but this is a whole new ballgame, not practicing for it will hurt later, trust me from both sides of practice. </p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Let me clarify something here, with the exception of 100 level language classes, we will have classes every other day. The M/T-day cycle means you have a class every other day, not every day. SO, 14 class periods will be split among 5-8 classes (depends on the person). Some classes are double periods too. Can have anything from only 5 class periods as a 4 dig to completely full schedule from double period classes. Either way, everyone needs to be prepared for the worst, it likely will happen at least one semester.</p>

<p>

This is so important! I have 3 friends in 2010 that were absolutely DYING to fly. They have had that dream crushed and are seeking alternate paths (Medicine, intel, etc.) mainly due to colorblindness (2) and depth perception (1). I know of a dozen others with the same problems. Never had the problem before, now they do. Other issues can happen like ACLs, MCLs, surgeries, concussions, etc. Bullet and Pima have said it so many times, but you MUST want to be an officer first, pilot second!</p>

<p>Hope this shines some more light. Off to philosophy and Mill Utilitarianism! :)</p>

150

<p>Many kids may leave due to academics but that doesn't mean they don't have the potential to pass. If a lot of kids are going to the AFA and dont know on day 1 that they will take Math and Science then admissions is doing a very poor job of communicating this.
There is help available. Do all cadets take advantage of all the assistance? No - they realize they don't want to work this hard and leave or give up and flunk.
If the Supplemental Instruction offered at AFA is anything like what is offered at USMA - it is superb resource that a student won't find at most civilian schools.</p>

<p>Many many kids who get straight A's in high school do not continue to do so in college, regardless of where they go. I don't consider a 2.75 GPA at AFA or any other academy failing. Many cadets would consider it job well done.</p>

<p>About Beast - I guess I assumed that if Beast at WP got and kept New Cadet's in shape then Beast at AF would too. Perhaps it is less physically demanding at AFA.
In any case, if certainly won't keep you in shape during the academic year.</p>

<p>The bottom line is every cadet needs to have self motivation and desire to succeed. The academies all go through a stringent selection process so they are not going to select candidates who do not have the POTENTIAL to graduate. Will it be easy? No way - many kids at SA serve time on Ac Prob. This doesn't mean they are stupid nor does it mean they won't graduate.
Pima - yes many universities do accept students who are very high risk.</p>

<p>My point is I think PIMA may be a little bit out of line telling a candidate that they are not a good fit for the AFA if he has to study in Math. This decision is best left up to the candidate and admissions.</p>

151

<p>

Absolutely! USAFA is ranked number ONE in the country, #1!, for teacher availability. Any student not taking advantage of this fact is an idiot (unless they really don't need it) and have no excuse not to pass with so much help there! </p>

<p>

Right on, 2.75 is good! 2.7 is the average. An interesting slide the Dean showed 2009 had average GPAs at several colleges over time (1960-present). The scatterplot shows a clear trend among most universities increasing from an average of ~2.5-2.7 to an average now around ~3.3. However, USAFA is a lone dot far below the trend, keeping 2.7 as its average over the decades. Our curriculum hasn't become easier, and has probably become more difficult in ways which has kept the average where it should be. Few are ashamed of having a GPA in the 2s, its a good GPA here! </p>

<p>

I would say it is less demanding here based on what WP cadets have told me. But, its more about the person. For me, my running was not strong and my pull-ups needed a lot of work. I made sure to put my full effort into improving, and after BCT my run time was dramatically better and I almost doubled my pull-ups (9 to 17). Of course, other aspects improved, but it does take the effort to improve. I'm sure its true at all the Academies. </p>

<p>What does confuse me though, is some of the difficulties we have (I really don't know the level of fitness for plebes at WP or USNA) with fitness with our 4 digs when our weekly/daily training for 4 digs is far more rigorous compared to the other academies. </p>

<p>I don't think PIMA was trying to tell az that he wasn't a good fit. I think she's trying to stress, rightly, just how important math and science skills will be while here. Coming unprepared, especially if you're not already inclined to math and science, is a very difficult obstacle to overcome once one begins.</p>

152

<p>


</p>

<p>I think Pima may have been commenting on the candidate's own admission that he did not increase his ability in Math, only his ability in taking the SAT test, as he said here:</p>

<p>"In total, i took the SAT 5 times. The reason, was though I had 600's and up in the Verbal sections, I had, in the first 4 times, gone from a 500 to a 510 in math. I STUDIED ALOT of SAT math and learned HOW to do the question, not just how to do the math. I got a 630 the 5th time i took it and i was seriously SHOCKED i did so well."</p>

<p>If you take the SAT 4 times and score 510, that's probably a good indicator of your math abilities. If you then go and then study "how to do the question, not just do the math" and increase your SAT score, then the candidate may be fooling themselves.</p>

<p>She may be right - the candidate may encounter mathematics at a level far beyond his ability.</p>

<p>:cool:</p>

153

<p>teaching yourself math without a competent instructor is HARD. I got a 26 on the ACT math portion. However, I had an awesome Calc teacher at USAFA, and was one of the top students in Calc II with a very high A. So yes, you might encouter math at a level beyond your current ability, but don't underestimate the power of having a good instructor.</p>

154

<p>If admissions thought that was the case - they would average scores. The SAT doesn't measure ability and never did. It was designed to measure aptitude. How well it does that is questionable.
It is downright difficult to fake a high SAT score. One really can't test a 630 by guessing. However, not every student is a great SAT test taker. This is why admissions will use his score and the highest level of Math he has taken to make a determination.
It very well may be that he takes Calculus over again. Nothing wrong with that and if he went to West Point that would be the norm.</p>

<p>My <em>visual</em> when I read PIMA's post was a kid sitting in his living room, having just received an appointment wondering if he should accept it based on a anonymous post by some one in a forum. This is the danger of forums.</p>

<p>I don't think anyone of us can judge from this candidate posts whether or not he has the ability to succeed at AFA. We should leave that up to admissions.</p>

155

<p>Okay...clarification. Luigi got a shack</p>

<p>If you don't know what that means it will become a term you will learn...BULLSEYE</p>

156

<p>I know its a while back, but thank you everyone for the LOA vs Appointment vs Nomination. Very complicated but insightful.</p>

157

<p>Wow.
You leave for a bit and come back to this. The whole thread is about candidates comparing their CFA scores, and then how SAT's went. In fact the first 125 posts are about that!
Then, I read the post from Luigi (125) about how we're stressing about the CFA and getting your Math SAT up 80-100 points will help your appointment chances. AZ said he "bombed" the SAT but got his SAT scores improved, and then got an LOA. I was trying to add my own experience in improving my math SAT score as inspiration for other candidates who might be worried about a low score, and to ensure them that it is not the end of the world, and to stick with it. Anyone who knows the SAT knows it is a reasoning and logic test, not just a Math or English test. I was using my own experience to inspire others to keep practicing to improve their WCS!
OBVIOUSLY this was taken way out of context. Everyone seems to be making assumptions about MY own WCS, which no one knows about. As a matter of fact, I have had the class profile of each year posted on my bathroom mirror since eighth grade, along with the cadet schedule, and the required classes, etc. So thank you all for your insightful comments, but i would recommend we get back to the CANDIDATES and the answers from current cadets like Raimus and Hornet. This is not to say parent's comments are a bad thing -- I appreciate them. But the assumptions are way off base.</p>

158

<p>;) We're (Me at least!) are not making assumptions about who you are. BUT, I have 5 semesters of experience as a cadet now, a year of being on here prior to coming to the academy, and I have watched my classmates and the following years from CC and the years ahead. Based on all that, I've watched and warned people about certain aspects of their abilities or their attitudes and seen how its played out (usually not favorably). </p>

<p>Pima is right on many accounts here, so listen to her assessment (in fact, a lot of her assessment comes from my comments over the last 1-2 years and my discussions with her on here and in person. ;) ) </p>

<p>This IS about the candidates, we are pointing out the most common problems for 4 digs and helping tell YOU GUYS how to avoid the same issues and to be better prepared. Ignore the comments above at your own peril.</p>

159

<p>Ahhhh yes hornet, the advice I'll take, just not the "extrinsive rhetorical embroidery" (Machiavelli's The Prince)</p>

160

<p>Fair enough. Definitely a fan of the Prince as well. Read it for a class last year. :)</p>