<p>I should add this PS to your personal story - for centuries the experience you describe (being excluded for being different) was the lot of every immigrant group and minority in America, including the Jews. They couldn't stay in certain hotels, there were quotas for how many could attend Ivy schools, they couldn't get jobs in "white shoe" law firms, etc. I'm sorry you had to drink from that bitter cup personally but maybe in the end (I hope) it gave you some empathy as to what the experience of "the other" has been in America for centuries.</p>
<p>OK. Thanks for the assurances on the Penn experience. </p>
<p>As to your thoughts on my personal experience - did I learn anything? Sure I did. I didn't like it at all. In fact, growing up a liberal Democrat child of liberal Democrat parents, I kind of had the empathy for the problem in theory at least and as much as an 18-year old can - already. </p>
<p>And let us all remember that just because we did it to you (whoever you are), doesn't make it right to do it to us (whoever we are). I am assuming you agree with me:). However, for those who find power having been previously denied it - the temptation to abuse it can be strong. Again, I'm not saying this is happening, just that I have seen it to happen in many places.</p>
<p>Two wrongs don't make a right - I wasn't suggesting that it did. But I guess it's a natural human tendency to dominate when you are the majority group (or even a large minority). You have to be aware of the problem and make a conscious effort not to discriminate or you'll end up doing it, even if it's not intentional (and in general I don't think there is a lot of intentional discrimination by Jews against non-Jews despite what happened to you. America on the whole has worked out very well for most Jews and there is no sense of bitterness or imposing a pay back for past wrongs (most of which are beyond the memory of today's generation). African-Americans are another story.) That's why I think it's so valuable to have an experience where the shoe is on the other foot at some point in your life - it will make you humbler and more aware of the problem if you go back to a place where you are again in the majority. You can be aware on a "book" level but until you have the personal experience it's not the same thing. I wish you could have skipped the unpleasant experience but "that which does not kill you makes you stronger."</p>
<p>One thing I would add is that (especially at Wharton) the thing that Asians and Jews and a lot of people from the Northeast in general share is that they are by nature competitive and ambitious and not subtle about their desire to get ahead, where the WASP thing to do (even if you are smart, as you must be to be at Penn in the first place) is to "play it cool". I think this is a source of culture shock for people from outside the NE and large West Coast cities who are used to a more "laid back" style.</p>
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It seems rather self-deprecating to buy into the JewPenn nomenclature. . .
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<p>Jews engaging in self-deprecating humor? Oy vey, I'm shocked!</p>
<p>Who cares about how many Jews there are? Ham is delicious.</p>
<p>@JohnnyK,</p>
<p>Only because you talked about basketball games in your other post today: Did you go to the St Joe's "home" game at the palestra where they launched hot dogs with the t-shirts into the stands, and the penn students threw them back b/c they weren't kosher?</p>
<p>I'd just like to say that this is the single best title for a thread in CC history.</p>
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Why is there a higher proportion of Jews in the Ivies? What is the explanation?
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<p>Keep in mind that most Jews only give lip-service to Judaism. Even those who do not read the Torah claim Jewish ethnicity because their mother is Jewish (I know, it's contradicting for a non religious Jews to claim Jewishness by citing a law in the Torah). It's really not much different than a German American calling themselves 'partly' German. Most Jews do not speak Hebrew nor have any relations with Israel. A more common culture (such as celebrating Hanukkah), however, unites them and creates a better sense of Jewish community than the Germans.</p>
<p>"Ham is delicious."</p>
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<li>LoL.....</li>
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<p>Haha, this thread was very interesting to read. </p>
<p>I'm the kind of Jew who, as you said above, only "pays lip service" to being Jewish. I'm actually agnostic--but I'd love to be a member of a big Jewish community. So Penn sounds like a match.</p>
<p>Anyone have any ideas on my chances for Wharton..?</p>
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Philadelphia is all about who's Italian-American.
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<p>Really? How are Italian-Americans looked upon differently? And what qualifies as Italian-American? 25-50%?</p>
<p>^As a girl who is half Italian-American and half Russian Jew by ancestry, yet agnostic by belief, and very interested in UPenn, I'm finding this thread rather amusing ;)</p>
<p>^There is no such thing as 'Jewish' ancestry. If you have blood tracing back to the Ashkenazics, but abandoned the religion, than you're no longer a Jewish-American, but a Russian-American. You cannot claim ancestry through the Halakha because it is a law inscribed in the Torah. If you do not believe in the validity of the Torah and its scriptures, the Halakha laws obviously do not pertain to you.</p>
<p>You're correct bloodline is actually American, since you were born here and your parents were most likely born here. However, if you want to use 'ancestry', than you are half Italian-American, half Russian-American. You're not a Jew.</p>
<p>OY -- this is a very very old argument/discussion. Is Judaism a religion or a culture or a race?</p>
<p>The Jewish religion allows for all types of beliefs, so Judaism doesn't require certain religious beliefs for you to be considered a Jew. </p>
<p>There are many American Jews who are "secular" or "reform," who love chopped liver and matzoh and know a few words of Yiddish and attend Passover Seders (or not) and who light the candles at Hannakah but wouldn't be caught dead in a Temple. In my experience, these people absloutely consider themselves Jewish, and so would most Reform rabbis.</p>
<p>Branches of Judaism, like branches in Christianity and other religions, is still a faith. There are different beliefs in Judaism, but they are nevertheless religions affiliated with Judaism. Whether their detailed beliefs are parallel to orthodox Judaism is not the point.</p>
<p>One only considers the race issue if you are religious because the laws in the Torah outline a race. However, if you are secular, than you're not religious and would not believe in the corresponding Jewish laws. Most Jews have not studied the historiography of the Jewish identity question, so they would naturally repeat what is lectured to them in the religious Jewish community, which adheres to the Halakha laws due to their faith.</p>
<p>This argument is only old because the religion of Judaism is old. Jewish religions would consider a person born of a Jewish mother a Jew because they abide by the Halakha laws. However, secular individuals and other faiths would not see you as a Jew because they do not believe in the scriptures of the Torah, including the Halakha. In conclusion, it comes down to the individual; do you personally believe in the Judaic faith? If yes, than consider yourself a Jew. If no, than you're not a Jew because you don't believe in the Torah and its laws. The Jewish rabbis would still call you a Jew, but the reason is because the rabbis are Jewish in faith and live by the laws of the Torah.</p>
<p>bahamutscale - you're wrong that there's no such thing as "Jewish ancestry" - for example there have been specific genetic markers found that relate to Kohanim (those of the former priestly class). The Jews of Europe were fairly (if not entirely) distinct in appearance from the surrounding Poles, Russians, etc. - for example the frequency of blond hair and blue eyes is much lower in Jews. Etc. Failure to practice Halakhic Judaism does not retroactively make all your Yiddish speaking, pious Jewish ancestors into "Russians".</p>
<p>That's a very immature anthropological logic you are using, Percy. Many people with European descent can trace ancestry to Christian, Muslim, and Jewish ancestors. People with the Cohen surname (among other Jews) can certainly trace their blood to the Kohanim, but that does not make them Jewish. Their ancestors, as priests, were Jewish because they were religious. However, you, as the descendant, are not Jewish unless you continue to practice Judaism. You would be correct to state that the kohens of today have blood that trace back to the community of former Jews.</p>
<p>Jews, as a whole, lack a common ancestry. The main reason being that it is a religion and not a race. Sure, people of the Jewish religious community have distinct looks, especially since from time immemorial the practice of not mixing with the gentry was practiced. However, the fact remains that Jews lack one common ancestry or one common biological distinction. There are many with traits that trace to various areas indigenous to people with the Jewish religious practices (Ashkenazis, Sephardi, Mizrahi, etc.), but that fact simply supports the point that Jews are not a race due to a disunity in a 'cradle civilization.' </p>
<p>Granted, some Jews may claim blood directly to the middle east. However, even than, that individual is an Arab and only Jewish if religious. This is because, unlike Jews and Muslims who populate the fertile crescent, being Arab is a racial relationship, not a religious relationship. The Arabness of an individual, unlike the claims made by Jews, Muslims, and Christians, is determined by one common ancestry to one common land that predates all forms of religion. Modern day media often is incorrect in directly correlating Arabs as Muslims; Arabs, as the title given to all those with Middle Eastern ancestry, have existed long before the emergence of Western religions.</p>
<p>In fact, the Mizrahis are actually Arab Jews who began to distinguish themselves, incorrectly, as an ethnic group instead of a religious group after a history of anti-semitic activities in that region. Like all other 'ethnic' groups of the Jews, they are nothing more than a people distinctive of that region that happened to practice Judaism.</p>
<p>Failure to practice Halakha is indeed a determining factor of whether one is Jewish or not because the race only exists in Judaism and because of Judaism. Without the religion, the 'race' question would have never even been contested. Also, I never made a sweeping statement that 'all your Yiddish speaking, pious Jewish ancestors into "Russians".' That only applies to the person I replied to, who claimed Russian descent.</p>
<p>We are getting pretty far off topic here with your rambling and quirky essays on "what is a Jew", but your logic is flawed - if your ancestors considered themselves "Jews" and not "Russians" (as they surely did) then how can you be turned into a "Russian" just by failure to observe all 613 commandments? And at what point does this transformation happen? What if you only keep 612 and turn the light switch off Fri. night when no one is looking - are you a "Russian" at that point? What if you are Conservative? Reform? Attend a Passover seder and light hanukah candles? </p>
<p>"Jewish" is many things - a religion, a culture, an "ethnicity", a kind of rye bread. The idea that Jews are merely inhabitants of a region who happen to practice a different religion and are Jewish only for so long as they practice the religion fully and completely is an exceedingly narrow definition. You're welcome to your view but don't expect many people to buy into it.</p>
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We are getting pretty far off topic here with your rambling and quirky essays
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<p>Don't read it. It's that simple. Personal attacks are a sign of desperation. If you're a Jew with a heavy indoctrination that you're a 'Jew' despite being secular or whatnot, realize that it is all dogma.</p>
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if your ancestors considered themselves "Jews" and not "Russians" (as they surely did) then how can you be turned into a "Russian" just by failure to observe all 613 commandments?
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<p>You're reasoning is flawed, again. The ancestors considered themselves Jews because of the religion. This is why people from Spain, the German Rhineland, the middle east, and all other places all called themselves Jews despite being physically separated. They were connected by religion, not race.</p>
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What if you only keep 612 and turn the light switch off Fri. night when no one is looking - are you a "Russian" at that point? What if you are Conservative? Reform? Attend a Passover seder and light hanukah candles?
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<p>If you don't believe in the religion, doing all these actions mean nothing. An atheist Mexican can do all these things with a Jewish family and will not be considered Jewish simply because lit a little candle.</p>
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"Jewish" is many things - a religion, a culture, an "ethnicity", a kind of rye bread.
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<p>Yes. Thanks for placing ethnicity in quotes, as you finally realize that the standard definition applied to all other races do not apply to the Jews. Jewish ethnicity is observed by the religious community through Halakha and not by all other groups.</p>
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The idea that Jews are merely inhabitants of a region who happen to practice a different religion and are Jewish only for so long as they practice the religion fully and completely is an exceedingly narrow definition.
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<p>It's not that complicated. See: Christians and Muslims. Two similar religions that do no consider themselves a 'race' because of a lack of persecution in their histories. They were never prompted to create an artificial race like the Jeiwish Arabs renaming themselves the 'Mizrahi' ethnics.</p>
<p>Again, it's best if you read more into the subject instead of spitting out the same things preached to your by the general populace. Academics easily refute the racial issue of the Jew. When filing professional documents, you'll realize that many places simply omit 'Jewish' from a list of other races.</p>
<p>Now, if you feel inclined to continue this argument but not ruin this thread, PM me. Otherwise, just reply here without all the other ad homs.</p>
<p>I had a Jewish step father. Does that give me a leg up? :)</p>