<p>@knight2011, after being there for four years, I do not share your experience. There are many mediocre white/ORM students at Penn and many of outstanding minorities. </p>
<p>The purpose of affirmative action is to give students of color with potential the opportunity to success acknowledging the uneven playing field. As with everything, it is a gamble. However, affirmative action practices have most definitely helped schools identify extraordinary students of color who went above and beyond given the opportunity to attend an elite institution.</p>
<p>@Poeme I have one question for you. Why did my 2400, 4.6 friend with amazing EC get rejected (Asian), but another URM had a 2200 and 4.3 at the same school and got accepted. Tell me with a straight face that the URM was better than the Asian.</p>
<p>@WhartonnotHYPS, just because one applicant is rejected doesn’t mean they are worse than someone who was accepted. That’s not how admissions work. There is an element of randomness relating to what the people in admissions want at the time. Several of my friends wanted to go to MIT or Stanford for undergrad and were rejected even though they were much better than other students who got in (they got into several of these places for grad school). It happens.</p>
<p>Maybe your friend was perfectly qualified to get into Penn but admissions thought another student would be a better pick. Maybe your friend’s essays weren’t that good (a lot of the essays are really terrible), maybe the teacher recommendations were just okay, who knows. But just because someone has a 2400 and a GPA like that doesn’t mean they are entitled to get into Penn. In fact, I know a student who fit that profile who is in fact Asian. He did pretty poorly at Penn academically versus other students with lower grades/test scores.</p>
<p>A 2200 is very well within the threshold for acceptance to Penn. I don’t know how the weighted GPAs convert to class rank since they are different at each school. I never said that affirmative action has no affect on how they read someone’s applications, but judging by the SAT score alone, this person was perfectly qualified to get into Penn. There are plenty of non URMs with similar SAT/ACT scores who got into Penn, so no, the standards were not considerably lowered to admit this student.</p>
<p>I have four years of experience at Penn that give me a lot deeper perspective on these issues than the average high schooler.</p>
<p>@WhartonnotHYPS – if I had to guess, I’d say your friend got rejected because they got a hint in either the essays or recs that that person wasn’t 100% about Penn or came across “over confident” in their chances for Penn. Penn is very sensitive to whether or not you actually want to be there or whether you’re applying because it’s more of a “sure thing” for your stats than HYPS and very careful with yield management. The person who got in – first it’s not like they took someone whose stats were out of line w/ Penn – and second I bet that person showed their desire to be at Penn just a bit more. Also, admissions is not a zero sum game. I know when you’re in HS it seems like – John didn’t get in from our school bc Joe took his spot. It isn’t like that – if they wanted both candidates, they could have taken both without question while showing a bit less love to the schools that routinely get 20-30 kids into Penn each year or letting the class size for that yr be 2501 instead of 2500.</p>
<p>Hate to break it to you but even in your admissions cycle there will be instances where someone who was a “shoe in” does not get in but someone with an SAT score 100 pts lower does get in. After you pass a certain threshold, the “soft” factors matter A LOT for Penn.</p>
<p>Many people on this thread seem to be coming at this with the view that URMs that are applying to Penn are getting in ranked in the middle of their class with 2 APs and a 1800/2400 SAT score. I have been on numerous panels about this at Penn recently – the reality is Penn (and all the ivys) get racial diversity but do not get economic diversity. Meaning the vast majority of AA or Hispanic kids that are applying are from the same high schools as you – thus they have access to the same APs, same ECs, and same resources financially such as SAT classes etc. So this isn’t a case of vastly unqualified people getting in simply because they are URMs coming from poor schools. These URMs are just as qualified as you and a small differential in SATs or GPA does not change that.</p>
<p>A 2200 is not significantly different than a 2400. The 2400 made zero mistakes while the 2200 made a few but it does not indicate any intellectual differences between the two.</p>
<p>One person’s strive for perfection may take away from other pursuits which would make them more well-rounded. The guy with a 2200 may have pursued and excelled at other interests which makes them interesting.</p>
<p>At certain thresholds, the score differential doesn’t mean much. I think that at Penn a 2000-2050 gets you in the door (not that there are no outliers) and after that the committee selects from among all the qualified applicants.</p>
<p>Plus, these schools like to admit different kids from all over the world of every race, religion, color, creed and sexuality. It is more probable that an Asian student doesn’t get admitted because another Asian student was selected that they thought was a better fit.</p>
<p>I think a lot of Asian applicants apply for science majors or to Wharton and that may be part of the reason they may have a harder time getting in. Science majors typically are some of the strongest students at Penn. I have also noticed that there are actually a lot of Asian students majoring in the humanities or social sciences so that probably sets them apart in some ways. However, Penn has a very large Asian population so there are definitely a lot of Asian students admitted.</p>
<p>@erodbball, one of my friends got in with a 30 ACT ED. She was not a URM. That translates to around 2050. You are right around that range. If you improve your reading score (definitely doable) you will be even more competitive. Your other scores are fine, you just made a few mistakes on those sections which honestly are not significant.</p>
<p>@poeme, affirmative action is designed to put two races on an equal playing field but can you honestly say that is not somewhat anachronistic? My white friend from a single mother on welfare in west vrginia gets rejected from Penn with the same stats as a wealthy, upper class black male from the DC area. Are they honestly on an equal playing field now? And most blacks at Penn are wealthy and come from Exeter, andover, or other private/boarding schools just like many of the whites. The only thing that differs among the two groups is that Penn needs a diversity quota so they reject many qualified asians and whites for lower scoring minorities who come from the same privileged and wealthy backgrounds. Not all urms score below the Penn avg, obvs, but more so do than whites and asians. </p>
<p>@knight2011, I do agree with you that minorities who come from affluent backgrounds and have advantages like well educated parents shouldn’t need to benefit from affirmative action. I also agree that they need to take socioeconomic status into consideration. However, for middle class minorities, I think affirmative action is very necessary. Statistically, below a certain income level, minorities at the same income level have less opportunities than non minorities. Middle class whites generally have more resources that middle class minorities, that’s why I think both factors, race, and socioeconomic factors need to be considered.</p>
<p>Where is it written that Penn needs a diversity quota? It’s true they choose to strive for diversity but quotas are dangerous things.</p>
<p>In the case of quotas, that means some space is reserved for Asians, some for whites, some for blacks and so on. Therefore, a black AA beneficiary is taking a slot set aside for blacks and hence is not taking any space that would’ve gone to a white or Asian. On the other hand, Asians are competing against Asians and whites against whites, etc.</p>
<p>But, there is variation in the ratios year after year which denotes some fluidity in the quotas or that there are no quotas at all except the desire to build a well rounded, diverse student body from out the pool of qualified applicants from one year to the next. Since there are many more variables to consider like legacies, the talented and gifted, the athletes, the wealthy and the politically connected, I think that the latter is more likely than the former - raw quotas couldn’t achieve the goals of an admissions team and, in truth, would only frustrate and disrupt things.</p>
<p>I don’t think the scenario of the poor girl from West Virgina being beaten out by the wealthy, well educated black kid is a likely scenario. Especially since there are many millions of poor white kids and perhaps thousands with good stats while there may only be a few hundred wealthy, well educated black kids with excellent stats. And when you consider how many apply to schools other than Penn, the odds are very, very small indeed for anyone having a spot taken away by a black student. The argument is mute.</p>
<p>“In the case of quotas, that means some space is reserved for Asians, some for whites, some for blacks and so on. Therefore, a black AA beneficiary is taking a slot set aside for blacks and hence is not taking any space that would’ve gone to a white or Asian. On the other hand, Asians are competing against Asians and whites against whites, etc.”</p>
<p>And that is the problem. Why should there be quota or caps? Why should blacks compete with blacks (with mostly lesser qulifications) and Asians compete with Asians (with mostly outstanding credentials)?</p>
<p>“very small indeed for anyone having a spot taken away by a black student”
No, that’s not correct. If all applicants compete fair and square, without caps and quotas, Asians won’t be at ~17%, blacks ~9% of a university freshman class. It would be 49% and 0.1% like the distributions at Caltech where no Affirmative Action influnce there. The 9% of Penn’s freshman of ~2400 would be 216 spots. That’s 216 spots of Asians been taken unreasonably by blacks just because of their skin colors. (That would mean roughly 1,500 Ivy League+MIT+Stanford spots been taken)</p>
<p>Asians need to continue to fight legally until Affirmative Action in college admission is abolished!</p>
<p>I was talking about the effects of quotas and who is impacted by them but the first sentence of my post is who says Penn has quotas and that quotas are a dangerous thing.</p>
<p>Many schools and individuals believe that a more well-rounded, more worldly and more interesting is achieved in the presence of a diversity of cultures, ideas and thoughts.</p>
<p>Also, many believe that the SAT is a single data point that should not be used a sole determinant of admissions so GPA, class rank, ECs, etc are also taken into consideration along with other data points.</p>
<p>If you throw these two ideas into the equation, it’s not unreasonable for schools to desire a more diverse class body than a single data point would yield or only several data points would yield. Plus, nobody has their name engraved on a spot in any class body at an elite institution. So, they can admit who they choose as long as they outline a criteria for acceptance that is reasonably fair, then anybody that meets those criteria is fair to admit. Since Asians are usually so heavily represented, they may have hard time making a case that changes admissions policies.</p>
<p>Affirmative Action is a complex issue with no simple and perfect solution that I am aware of. However, this thread seems to be focused on Asians and African Americans.</p>
<p>I would point out that preference is also given for legacy, and no one is complaining about that. Furthermore, more places are allocated to males in general than would be allocated if sex were not considered as a factor. Additionally, it is harder for international students to be admitted than US and Canadian students. Is that unfair? Idk.</p>
<p>I am not suggesting that Penn is perfect, or that I have all the answers. However, I am pointing out that this is a very complicated issue. </p>
<p>The thing i wonder about from your stats is why your scores on the Spanish exams aren’t higher since you are Mexican American and why are you even taking Spanish at all instead of a different language? It might seem like you didn’t challenge yourself enough by taking Spanish instead of a language not spoken in your home. Are other languages offered at your high school? </p>
<p>“many believe that the SAT is a single data point that should not be used a sole determinant of admissions so GPA, class rank, ECs, etc are also taken into consideration along with other data points.”</p>
<p>Please be aware that the CalTech admission isn’t with single data point. They took everything other than race into consideration and so Asians are 40%+ on their campus. </p>
<p>Much2learn: “Additionally, it is harder for international students to be admitted than US and Canadian students. Is that unfair?”</p>
<p>No, it isn’t unfair. International students should have their first choice in their country. I wouldn’t encourage kids younger than 22 to go overseas for college when parents are far away. (especially east Asian kids who are cared by their parents for longer and are less mature.)</p>