Chance me REA?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
1

I applied REA with a Business Major.
I am worried because I hear REA is super hard + I am not catholic.

Here are my stats:

GPA 4.0 unweighted/5.6 weighted (out of 6)
ACT 34 (35 writing, 35 reading, 33 math, 34 science)
SAT: 1530/1600 (760 math, 770 reading/writing, 24/24 essay)
Rank: 4/550-
APs taken so far: (Word History (5), English lang (5), Macro (5), Spanish Lang (5), US History (4), Chem (4))
Senior Course Load: (AP Lit, AP Calc AB, AP Spanish Lit, AP Micro, AP Bio, AP Govt, AP Euro, AP Physics 1)

ECs:
Debate- President (for 2 years), State Champion, TOC qualifier (top 100), ranked about 30th in the nation
NHS- President
Student Council- Secretary
Founder/President of my own computer science/math tutoring non-profit (wrote about in my essays)
VP of another non-profit for reading tutoring/help for children with disabilities
Model UN Research Captain
DECA

Work Experience-
Marketing Intern for a chain of restaurants

Awards/Honors:
Girls Nation Nominee (2 awarded in the state)
Girls State Nominee
Debate State Champion
Debate Regional Champion

Recs:
Macro, Micro Teacher 9/10
Counselor 6/10 (Know him well but not super well)

Essays:
Common App one is really good + spent forever on it
Why Notre Dame was about combining their poverty studies program + business
Civil Rights one was ok
Take a risk- I have no idea

Demographics:
White
Middle Class

Extra-
I am not a practicing catholic + my essays were a lot about social justice as I teach bilingual students through my non-profit, could this hurt me?
Also, I am not a legacy
I havent been in contact with an admissions person but I am super interested in Notre Dame + scared I will get denied

Thanks!

2

I don’t think you will get denied at the REA stage. But you may get deferred to the RD round.
For REA, ND has been saying they mostly want to consider no-brainer applications, meaning kids in the top quarter of the applicant pool. ND’s most recent middle 50% for test cores was 1440-1540 SAT and 33-35 ACT.

You are just shy on both of those. Good luck.

3

It seemed like last year’s thread had a lot of 33/34 act scoring applicants that were admitted, do you think really strong ecs + essays can help push an applicant up one ACT point? It seems interesting that they would defer people just because they were shy one point, but I am not expert. What do you think?

4

@bclover16 The post from @northwesty said that you “may” get deferred. I’m pretty sure they also believe that you may get accepted REA. I believe the middle 50% they gave for the standardized test scores was just to give you a frame of reference.

The REA decision will still be based upon a holistic review of your application. Even if you your standardized test score isn’t in the top quarter of the applicant pool, that doesn’t mean that your overall application isn’t viewed as being in the top quarter because of other factors such as GPA, Class Rank, EC’s, etc.

In your case, you have an UW GPA of 4.0, top 1% in class rank, an extremely rigorous schedule, and your EC’s look good. I think you probably get in REA, but as @northwesty said, you may get deferred. Nobody knows for certain, all we can give you is perspective based upon prior years. The only problem is that the quality of the applicants seems to be going up each year. I’m pretty sure that this year will be no different.

Also, I think the fact that you are female applying to Mendoza will help you. Last stat I saw was that 42 percent of the enrollment in Mendoza was female. I’m assuming that they would like that to increase a little bit.

My son didn’t make much contact with an Admissions Rep, but we did visit campus.

5

@bclover16: My D was admitted last year REA with a pre admit to Mendoza with a measly 34 ACT, but a strong profile.

I do believe Admissions looks at the whole package. Did you visit campus?

I’m fascinated with @GraceDad 's point about female enrollment in Mendoza, I did not know that.

6

“My D was admitted last year REA with a pre admit to Mendoza with a measly 34 ACT.”

But for last year’s rodeo, the middle 50% for ACT was 32-34. So 34 wasn’t measly, it was top quarter of the pool. Which is what ND says it is looking for at the REA stage.

For this year, the middle 50% is higher – 33-35. So a 34 this year ain’t the same as a 34 was last year. ACT is only one data point in the application for sure. But it is a data point that we’ve heard ND mention this year over and over. “For REA, we want to see 35 ACT or 1550 SAT.” Their words, not mine.

This is just about the REA stage. Whether you get in at the RD stage is a different ballgame. Last year’s REA was 1610 A, 818 D, and 2893 R. So getting deferred means you were in the top half of an admissions pool that was much stronger than what the overall admissions pool will turn out to be.

While I haven’t seen any specific data on RD outcomes for REA deferreds, my hunch is that they do pretty good at the RD stage.

7

@northwesty: “For this year, the middle 50% is higher – 33-35.”

OK, I’m confused here. So let’s make sure we are talking about the same thing. The enrolled freshman class of 2020 had a middle fifty of 33-35. My D is one of them and was admitted REA with a 34. There isn’t a middle fifty yet for the class of 2021, because there aren’t any admitted students. So the presumption is that the score ranges will be the same as for the class of 2020. And if that is true, then I think you are saying the top of the class should have a 35 or 36 ACT to be admitted REA because a new standard has been set.
And I think what you are saying is that when my D applied, the middle fifty for the previous year was 32-34, so expectations last fall for applicants was that a 34 was a likely score for REA admission at ND. Is that what you mean? Yes, true, but the score range ended up being higher than expectations, and still kids with 34s were admitted REA even thought they ended up be smack dab in the middle of the middle fifty. That’s all I’m saying. I think you might be focusing on these numbers a bit more than is necessary.

Scores aren’t the whole picture for admissions, and ND admissions says that. Here is an article in the ND Observer from last April: http://ndsmcobserver.com/2016/04/class-2020-statistics/

The relevant part of the article says:
’ “We’ve chosen to use the SATs less and the ACTs less to identify talent,” Bishop said. “It’s not that we don’t use it, we just don’t use it as as much of a separator as we did ten years ago. Class performance remains the top factor – those test scores are a part of that academic view of you, but then we set that aside and we look at your personal attributes, your motivation for accomplishment. "

Now I have to qualify my point because the last admissions talk I attended with my D was Spring of 2015, and things may have changed in what they recommend for REA applications. Still, a kid with a strong application still might be a candidate for REA admission with a 33-34 ACT. And there will be kids with 35s and 36s that will be denied outright in REA. If you read the article, they say that they look for fit in Notre Dame admissions. Making sure essays and other parts of the application communicate a particular student’s fit is very important. A perfect test score is not a guarantee of admission.

8

From what I can tell of each of your posts

Ruby’s “Last Year” = Northwesty’s “This Year”

9

Ruby – Last year vs. this year.

Your kid applied REA in the fall of 2015. At that time, the ACT stats for the class that had most recently enrolled was 32-34. For the ND admissions folks who are reading REA applications right now, the most recently available stats are 33-35.

10

@northwesty: Yes, but the kids they chose from the applicant group my D applied with in the fall of 2015 had to be exceptionally strong in test scores. Admissions was reading all those applications and saw who they had. That’s what I mean. If this year’s applicants are as strong as last year, the dynamic is the same. And that would mean that students with 34 don’t have to give up hope.

11

Ruby – this is a quote from an ND rep at a presentation from this fall: “We recommend that you have a 35 ACT or 1550 SAT to apply REA.”

YMMV.

12

@northwesty: YMMV, that is exactly what I was getting at.
A 35 or 36 isn’t a guarantee admission REA, neither does a 33-34 doom one to deferral or denial.

I just don’t think it is accurate to boil down admission to just some test scores. You are quoting one point the admissions officer made, but those talks are for an hour, and I’m sure the ND rep had more to say about what they are looking for in potential students. There’s no way test scores measure the human qualities and perspectives each kid could bring to a school.

Applicants have to put together the best case for being admitted. I once got a terrific job where I didn’t have one of the qualifications by presenting a good case. That kind of thing happens. And, it happens at ND.

Although the presentation I’m quoting from happened - five (?) years ago, it really stuck in my head. It was Don Bishop, the Assistant Dean of admissions. He was telling the group about a kid who wrote a very compelling essay, but was “a little light on the numbers”, and what it was that swayed the admissions committee to admit this kid.

It was this presentation about the ND mission, this story about this girl, and other stories Don Bishop told that evening that reaffirmed that ND was number one for my D1 who is a senior at ND and graduating this coming Spring. I was listening to the talk, but watching my daughter’s face. She LOVED it when Don Bishop was talking about the kinds of things the Notre Dame experience had inspired students to do. She was and is a match for ND, and made the case, her scores being only one aspect of her application.

Going back to the OP, here’s an applicant with an impressive profile, and who says her essays are good, and if the essays make the case for her admission, she has a good chance REA with her 34. That’s my view, based on my child’s recent experience.

13

+1 @Ruby789

Totally my opinion, but if I was advising my son and he had similar stats as the OP (even given the 33-35 average for last year) I would advise for REA.

Why? A few things jump to my mind a) applicant is still in the top 1% in the nation for standardized test scores–so a 34 most likely deserves a look, b) your chances of the admissions committee really reading and looking at your essays, recs, etc seems to be greater when there are less applicants (as there are in REA), c) if you are rejected (outright, not deferred) at REA–you most likely would be rejected at RD, and d) REA shows that you were interested enough to get your act together by Nov 1, and that you aren’t ED somewhere else.

I think that is it good that @northwesty is passing along what the admission rep said to them–so that should be considered. However, I have 3 kids in college and have been to more admission presentations than I can count. It is not uncommon for 1 rep to say one thing, and another to spin it slightly differently. When we went, they did not give a specific number, only that you would a) want to be in the top of the applicant pool (not the accepted pool, which is different–but gave the last years acceptance info to give some idea), and b) didn’t feel that extra time would strengthen your app. As @northwesty pointed out, this was 2 years ago, though.

Admittedly, no one on this thread really knows-(even those in the admissions office that you may see as student/parent facing are not necessarily the decision makers), so it is up to you to make your own decision and hope for the best!

14

+2 @Ruby789.

My D is a sophomore now at ND, and was admitted REA with very high stats. Her sister is a junior now and if she has the stats that the OP has, I’ll encourage her to submit during the EA round. OP, I think you’ve got a good shot.

P.S. We are not Catholic.

15

If your app isn’t going to get any stronger, go ahead and apply REA. Which the OP already did. There’s no downside, and ND specifically says that their goal is for you to get the exact same ultimate decision regardless of when/how you applied.

Whether you’ll get in at the REA stage is a completely different question than whether to apply REA. Whether you’ll get in eventually is also a different question from whether you’ll get in REA. The question the OP actually asked is about getting in at the REA stage.

To answer the question the OP actually asked, I’ve mentioned several times what ND itself says when answering that question. The website says “The Admissions Committee advises students to apply in the Restrictive Early Action process only if they are in the very top ranges of our applicant pool.” And what the admissions folks told us this fall is consistent with that.

My speculation is that the OP won’t get denied at the REA stage. My speculation also is that the OP is eventually going to get into ND. But a good chance of being deferred at REA because the test scores are a bit outside of ND’s stated metrics.

But the point to the OP is that a deferral (if that’s what happens) is actually a good outcome. Unlike ED schools like Duke, Penn etc., getting into ND early is harder rather than easier. A near miss at REA (which is what a deferral is) has a good chance of working out RD.

FWIW, I’m predicting an REA defer for my kid too – almost a carbon copy of the OP.

16

This is just a bump for anyone who is interested in the competitiveness of REA/ppl who want to look at this next year- I was accepted and was pre-approved for Mendoza! I think that it probably came down to essays, as I agree with the general sentiment above that REA is competitive and being above the top 75 percentile helps a lot, but I invested a lot of time in the “Why Notre Dame” essay as well as I focused on my passion for social equality/justice.

17

Congratulations @bclover16

I’m sure that your essays helped, but from everything I’ve seen with ND admissions, if you have an ACT of 34 -36 AND you are top 1% in your class rank with a rigorous academic schedule. You will almost always get admitted and I would suggest that you usually would get admitted REA. Obviously there are other factors such as EC’s, essays, reputation of your high school etc. which means it’s not a guarantee, but I think it is a pretty good guideline.

18

Congratulations @bclover16!! That is excellent news! I am sure your test scores plus your academic rigor, class rank, active involvement (plus that excellent internship) were helpful, plus you must have closed the deal with your essays. All your hard work is paying off! Are you planning an admitted student visit?