Thank you Oscar 63. I think the farm aspect is kind of a hook. She’s 4th generation, and refers to herself, accurately, as “3rd in command” after her mom and aunt who co-own the business. Women owned and operated farm. She’s toying with the idea of writing an essay comparing herself, a squash planter and picker, to some of the other applicants who grew up playing squash.
Does your D know that she has to take 3 PEs and swim 50 yards as part of the graduation requirement at Dartmouth?
She knew about the swimming requirement at Dartmouth. Thought there might be a phys ed requirement, but hadn’t looked into it. Sounds like Dartmouth’s requirement is less than Cornell’s.
She hates gym. Hated the fact that her high school makes everyone take it as a junior. She’s a farmer and in good shape as a result. As a parent I was not liking the idea of paying for gym classes at Cornell. Another problem with Cornell is that there is no good way to get to and from for us. 6 hours of mostly back roads and no major airport nearby.
I appreciate all the replies here, but she’s still not sure what to do. She loves the idea of going to McGill. It checks off the most important boxes for her: in a city, affordable, good reputation. She LOVED the McGill summer academy. She would only go elsewhere if it was an elite school and even then she’d have reservations.
The only reason I’m looking for other options is if she somehow got waitlisted at McGill despite having stats that are well above their minimum requirements. U of Ottawa is her backup plan, but it’s far away and quite a bit more expensive than McGill ($40k+ vs $30k+ at current exchange rates).
I’m thinking she should apply at a handful of elites that she has little chance of getting into. It’s like buying a lottery ticket for $75, but the odds are 1/50 or 1/100, or maybe even 1/10 instead of 1/100m.
Not directed at OP but if others reading are concerned about the PE requirement at Cornell - it’s pretty basic. There is a swim “test” that basically if you can swim, you’ll pass. If you can’t swim, Cornell will have you take swimming as the two semester PE requirement. Here’s the link to the history of the swim test: https://pe.cornell.edu/requirements/information/history-cornell-swim-test
If you pass the test, there are countless, fun options to take for PE. https://pe.cornell.edu/classes/fall-2019
There are more than 100 course offerings including outdoor stuff like rock climbing, water skiing, skiing/snowboarding, hiking, etc…in addition to more “traditional” PE stuff. My H took bowling for PE and I did synchronized swimming back in the day. Super fun way to meet new people and do something non academic.
Nothing like HS gym!
OP - Yes, Cornell is not easy to reach. If you need to fly, most students travel up to Syracuse and fly from that airport. They also have charter buses to the major cities for all the breaks. Also, ride share boards where you can connect with people with cars heading your way.
“U of Ottawa is her backup plan, but it’s far away and quite a bit more expensive than McGill”
One quick question: Why Ottawa rather than Concordia, or apply to both and decide later? Concordia is just up the street from McGill and the distance from you would not be significantly different compared to McGill. Is this related to specific programs? Also, in the unlikely event that your daughter is bilingual, Ottawa gives a tuition break for bilingual students. I am pretty sure that a student’s French would have to be pretty strong to take advantage of this.
Hopefully your daughter will get into McGill (or maybe even Dartmouth) and you won’t have to pick between the backup schools.
I would not worry about a swimming requirement at Dartmouth unless your daughter is terrified of the water. I had to deal with similar requirement as an undergrad. We had to swim the length of a pool. I am pretty sure that several people passed me before I got to the other end of the pool but no one cared. It was over in half an hour (or 10 minutes for the students who had passed me). Similarly we had a PE requirement which was quite easy. I think that I did judo for one and sailing for another – both are things that I had already done in high school. I think that bowling might have been available also but I didn’t do it. Fencing was another interesting option. This was not at Dartmouth however. I don’t know what they have but there are probably other fun and non-bothersome activities available that count as PE.
I’ve had trouble getting a handle on school rankings in Canada, but u of Ottawa seems to be far more we’ll-regraded than Concordia. World rank around 200 vs. 800. I believe that UNH is better than Concordia. Had a great tour of u of Ottawa.
Definitely agree that the ED advantage at a place like Dartmouth is less than appears from the raw numbers.
Even though Dartmouth fills almost half it seats via ED, it is not such a big thing after backing out the legacies and athletes and other hooked applicants. Last cycle had 574 ED admit offers. Of those 574 there were:
138 (24%) recruited athletes
191 (33%) people of color
80 (14%) first gens
86 (15%) primary legacies
29 (5%) secondary legacies
119 (21%) val/sal
A lot of these kids will check more than one box – I’ve seen a lot of legacy/athletes anecdotally. So some kids do get in without checking any box other than ED.
Just not that many…
https://news.dartmouth.edu/news/2018/12/acceptances-offered-most-diverse-early-decision-group-ever
@northwesty ,
The non parent (secondary legacies) are usually siblings that are current students/alumni. Dartmouth only considers parents who received their AB from the college as legacies…
You must also account from fab-brats, students from Hanover high, and developmental admits (which most schools do not release these numbers) but are also part of the sub sets you mentioned.
I’m a little bit stunned that Val/Sal comes into the equation at all to be totally honest. In my, admittedly, limited experience of the way gpas are calculated and how easier classes can give a boost to those gpas over harder classes I have often, silently, questioned (alright, in my head) the value of either title.
I think most schools use weighted gpa to determine class rank. I have a friend my age who graduated high school in the 80s right before our high school went to weighted grades. To this day he is pissed that an “art kid” beat him out for valedictorian.
He got salutatorian, even with all the highest level classes. Interesting to note is that he didn’t get into Dartmouth even though his dad went there. He’s pretty sure it was his somewhat low sat verbal score that kept him out. He wound up at Vassar, then u Chicago for mba. He’s made many millions of dollars.
Dartmouth is a tough school for admittance any way you look at it. It’s a long shot but as long as a student has some match and safety schools, I don’t see any problems.
Most selective schools use unweighted GPA because so many schools use different weihjting systems and there is already an expectation that you are taking the most challenging coursework that your school offers.
If your school dories not rank, no one is going to assume your rank or if you are Val/Sal. If your school doesn’t rank, it doesn’t rank and they work with what you have.
Sybbie, that’s an interesting comment you make about schools that don’t rank. My daughter’s school stopped ranking a few years ago. She knows she’s 5 only because she asked her guidance counselor. Officially she is “summa cum laude”.
Maybe it would help her Dartmouth application to leave out her class rank?
Unless the school officially ranks, then she should not rank her self. She should see her counselor because. Even schools that “don’t rank” will rank for scholarship consideration.
I know that my D’s high school did not rank (no Val/ Sal just class speakers where people could self nominate) and it did not hurt her admissions outcome.
Almost half the students accepted at Dartmouth came from schools that do not rank. What will be important is her school profile, and what the counselor checks off in the secondary school report about the rigor of the course work.
I think she’s definitely going to apply rd. Or the other one. Early action? Her odds are very slim, but it could happen, so why not try? Her school doesn’t rank, but does announce a Val and sal, which doesn’t help her.
The ed decision thread for 2023 has several examples of kids with not that great stats and ec’s who got in.
Having gone through it, I have to agree with #23.
One can choose to take some philosophical umbrage to being compelled to take these. And goodness knows any reason to whittle down a list can sometimes be useful.
Bu in practice these two little PE classes - (or I guess three for Dartmouth ?) fly by, and can be a useful diversion. I wish I had required PE classes now, I can sure use it !
As I recall, they did not “crowd out” academic classes, one takes a full academic load and these are on top of that, Pass/Fail, no GPA aspect…
They did not make any material difference to my overall college experience. After all these years I barely remember taking them.
If Dartmouth - or Cornell- is otherwise right for OPs daughter, I would not recommend eliminating it due to this requirement. In the big picture, it is a trviality at worst. At best it can turn out to be actually helpful. (Meet new people, get new skills, fight “freshman 15”…)
YMMV.
“49% were val/sal (38.4% of admitted students are valedictorians and 10.1% are salutatorians.)”
So is half the class vals or sals? While not causation, definitely a correlation there. OP, if the school doesn’t rank, then don’t even bring it up.
“Similarly we had a PE requirement which was quite easy.”
The issue is not whether the requirement is easy or you can meet new people, it’s that the OP’s daughter hates PE and hates being forced to take it. I heard a speaker say that once something moves from dislike to hate, it’s pretty hard to dislodge. I thought it was a pretty accurate statement. If Cornell is out because of that (and maybe other reasons like not a fit), then it’s out.
A number of colleges try to goodwill admit vals/sals in their area. It’s a gesture.
But count on tippy tops to look at the actual transcript, not just gpa and rank.
And trust all of us who say it: PE in college is almost always nothing like PE in high school. Just look it up in some handbook or other, see the choices.
What if it were called something else?
The ED deadline for Dartmouth is November 1st. As a practical matter, how would an ED applicant know that they are going to be the val/sal six months before graduation so they could put this down on their Dartmouth application? At my kids’ school, they don’t announce val/sal until May, and 3rd quarter grades count in the final GPA calculation. Often times, the difference between val/sal and #3 in the class is very small and nobody could honestly say in late October that they are going to be val or sal.
Per Dartmouth on the last cycle ED results:
“Accepted students also post some of the strongest academic profiles the College has seen in the early rounds. When rank or class standing information is available, 94 percent are projected to graduate in the top 10 percent of their high school class, with 119 as the likely valedictorian or salutatorian, a new high.”
That’s 119 out of 548 ED admits. No matter what the fine details, seems to be something that Dartmouth likes, looks for, tracks, and publicizes.