Chance to get into an Ivy School

Parents Forum
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<p>To be <em>really</em> helpful, the kid has to be a recruited athlete. Coaches have a certain number of tips that they can use in admissions to recruit the kids they want/need for their teams. So simply being a superb runner isn’t enough: if the coach already has tons of sophomore distance runners and needs sprinters, s/he will use the tips to get more sprinters and the great miler might be stone out of luck. The coach will probably look at a runner’s times rather than wins. In some sports, like soccer, there are showcases that kids have to go to if they want to be recruited.</p>

<p>The director of the orchestra, mind you, has NO tips and NO recruiting budget. Something that the recruited athlete parents always overlook when they claim that kids get in “because of” their artistic achievements, just like the athletes. Wrong. As Epiphany says, the kid who gets in that way is Jody Foster or Brooke Shields or Yo Yo Ma. Not that those individuals were not also qualified academically. Even the football and basketball recruits have to be “qualified” academically. Its just that the agreed-upon standard for “qualified athletes” in certain sports in the Ivy League is laughable in comparison to the typical stats of the successful unhooked candidate. On the other hand, it is likely that the recruited athletes who are sailors and fencers have stats just like those of the unhooked kids. So it varies from sport to sport.</p>

<p>If a kid is not a recruitable athlete, the kid’s athletic activities are just another EC: something that demonstrates energy and drive, characteristics that, as Epiphany says, the Ivies and other elite schools value. For that purpose, being a 3-season varsity athlete every year is probably good enough, even if you didn’t win anything. If you do achieve at a higher level, of course it looks that much better.</p>

<p>Similarly, getting into all-state is helpful, but what is really important is demonstrating real involvement with music by pursuing it in multiple ways, such as the regional youth symphony and other ensembles outside of school, seminars, camps, playing at various venues, etc. If the student sends a music supplement, it will be evaluated not by the ad comm, but by someone in the music department. If the orchestra director sends back a message that says “this kid is an excellent oboist, and we need one next year” I’m sure it will help. If you read its web site, Yale really tries to discourage students from sending music supplements. The message is that you had better be very good if you bother them with one. The OP’s kid is clearly good enough, and ought to send one.</p>

<p>At least, that is what it looks like from outside the ad comm’s deliberations. :)</p>

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<p>I agree completely that many Asian parents force their children to learn music. But I know as a matter of fact that the Tiger Mother approach won’t work if the child doesn’t like music. Parents can push for techniques, practice time, but parents can never push for music understanding, musicality, tone quality, color, etc., which have to be found by the child him/herself. So less and less Asian remain in the field. The ones who continue the path are the ones who truly love it. </p>

<p>Being involved in the music field for so long, I know whether he is good or great. He won’t make it to Curtis but would have a great chance to any other conservatory in the US.</p>

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<p>“The director of the orchestra, mind you, has NO tips and NO recruiting budget. Something that the recruited athlete parents always overlook when they claim that kids get in “because of” their artistic achievements, just like the athletes.”</p>

<p>this comment above is completely wrong. At a conservatory such as Curtis your child will audition as part of their application and that audition is key. It’s the conservatory’s version of “recruiting”. and no different than an athletes abilities being observed by a coach. As with most athletes, most artists going to HYPS or conservatories have been observed or reviewed and vetted so the best get through. Consolation would like to think that athletes have an unfair advantage over artists for some reason, but that’s not true.</p>

<p>And it’s also not true that athlete academic stats are lower than non athletes at HYPS, Parents of non-athletes have this misconception that somehow athletes get in with lower stats, it’s just not true at schools like HYPS. Not even for many of the football players.</p>

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<p>Yale has two orchestras to facilitate all of the kids who want to continue music in college. And they are danged good. They have no problems in filling those spots.</p>

<p>As for any hook, it has to be something the college wants NOW and it has to be at that level. The big story around here a few years ago in my graduated senior’s group was that crew would get you into the ivies. Well, some of the crew kids did get into top schools but looking at their stats they did not row their way into those colleges. It was an “addition” to the other stuff. It really depends on the sport, the position an athlete has in the sport and how important the sport is to the college. There are very few athletes who got into top schools with sub par academic stats. The sports often are the icing on an already very good cake.</p>

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<p>Once again, solid scientifc, conclusive, statistically projectible “evidence.” Right… :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Look in the mirror. You are the one who “twists everything,” not I. I am repeating back to you the bitterness in your posts, in which you devalue and belittle students and their accomplishments based on prejudices about the schools they’re attending. That’s not a feeling; it’s the evidence from all of your posts about Ivies, which are nothing but sour grapes.</p>

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<p>Did anybody here just enjoyed the application process? Or everybody is “cutting” thier children into Ivy admittable? Just skimming thru this thread looks soooo depressing. I have fully enjoyed the process of my kid applying to UG and Med. Schools. Maybe…becuase she refused applying to Ivy’s? Maybe it is a key to happy transition? She was happy to get to few Med. Schools, 2 in top 20 though not at HYP. She got rejected at 2, so what? I do not see any tragedy, she did not feel bad either. Maybe everybody needs just calm down and enjoy more, then you will remember this experience as one of the best times with your kid instead of crisis situation? But again, I am the one who is “obsessed with success”, although I do not feel that I am obsessed with anything in my life. However, everybody else on CC, I suppose are looking for something completely different. Maybe, if you get simply “obsessed with success”, and not that mysterious something else, maybe it will calm you down. Please, do not slide into depression over college admission, cheer up, enjoy. Best wishes!</p>

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<p>^I think it very much depends on the kid. My oldest hated, hated, hated writing personal essays, so that aspect of the process really put a damper on the rest of it. He’s also kind of a stick in the mud and doesn’t enjoy travel. It was easy to find a list of appropriate schools for him, including safeties that would still give him a challenging education. He applied to one Ivy (Harvard) and got in, but he went elsewhere.</p>

<p>I totally enjoyed the process with my younger son. He liked college visits, he likes to write, he was clever about the process. He was able to take his rather slim resume and sell himself. He did not lie or exaggerate, but he did not have a long laundry list of achievements. He sold himself as a happy go lucky guy with some interesting activities and a lot of potential with a solid academic schedule. He applied to two Ivies, and didn’t get into either, but he didn’t think they were his first choice. He hadn’t visited either of them with admissions in mind, though he’d been on the campus of one for reunions.</p>

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<p>^It is funny in regard to travel. My D’s #1 criteria for selecting both UG and Med. Schools was being within 4 hrs of driving from home. It is OK. Whatever they choose as their selection.<br>
I was a bit down when my S. (many years ago) said that if he does not get into his #1 choice program (at state school), he would not go to college at all. My answer was simple, I just let him know that he is NOT allowed to skip college, he was not allowed to drop out of it either (he has tried this one also). Later he thanked me many many times. He has his own kids, I do not think that they will allowed to skip college either, but that was the whole point of my insistance. I suppose, I could be called “obsessed with success”, but it was all done with the laugh more than anything else. BTW, my S. GOT INto program of his first choice, where he has met his future wife, he apprently knew where he belonged.</p>

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<p>Miami I thought I was pretty clear in my post how much my son got out of his application to Harvard-even though he was not accepted he gained a lot of perspective about the bigger world and insight into himself by his brief involvement with that school.</p>

<p>I am sure there are thousands of applicants to Ivy League schools who are excellent candidates and who managed to be so just by being themselves. I know he never did anything to package himself-of course he didn’t get into any of them so who am I to be giving advice, huh? :wink: I do think he could have put together a better application by being a bit more proactive but in the end it was his application, not mine, and it is his life, not mine.</p>

<p>There are just so many excellent schools out there-and they don’t even need to have the word “elite” associated with them! :)</p>

<p>My father’s entire family was Ivy League educated and they really don’t seem to have been any happier or more successful than other people I have met in life. I think it is a wonderful experience and my son would have been thrilled to attend Harvard but he’ll be just fine where he is going.</p>

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<p>"Once again, solid scientifc, conclusive, statistically projectible “evidence.” Right… </p>

<p>Look in the mirror. You are the one who “twists everything,” not I. I am repeating back to you the bitterness in your posts, in which you devalue and belittle students and their accomplishments based on prejudices about the schools they’re attending. That’s not a feeling; it’s the evidence from all of your posts about Ivies, which are nothing but sour grapes. "</p>

<p>Not sure why I would have sour grapes since I never applied to an Ivy, none of my kids are in college yet, and the kid I referred was admitted to every Ivy he applied to and chose not to go any of them. I dont really give a crap about your opinions by the way but do feel free in continuing your personal attacks by all means and psychobabble.</p>

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<p>Please. You are now talking about a CONSERVATORY, not a college or university! The discussion is not about audition-only admissions, but general admissions. You kid wasn’t applying to a sports academy, and the OP’s kid isn’t applying to Julliard. He doesn’t even intend to apply to an audition program within a university. </p>

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<p>No, I KNOW that recruited athletes have an advantage. So do celebrities, development admits, legacies, and URMs, to varying degrees. Is it an “unfair” advantage? Well, most of us have long since given up trying establish what is and is not “fair” in private college admissions. There simply is no point. </p>

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<p>I clearly stated that it varies by sport, and that in some sports the recruited athletes will have the same stats as unhooked students. But if you don’t think that the basketball players, for example, are subject to a lower academic standard, I have a bridge to sell you. Do some googling, and you will find documentation of the official Ivy requirements for athletic recruits. Then do some more searching and you’ll find discussion of Harvard’s basketball recruiting kerfluffle not too long ago.</p>

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<p>Pepper,
“Miami I thought I was pretty clear in my post how much my son got out of his application to Harvard-even though he was not accepted he gained a lot of perspective about the bigger world and insight into himself by his brief involvement with that school.”</p>

<p>-I cannot even begin to think about how much my D. got out of applying to various state schools. Yes, she has applied to specific programs. She got invited to several interviews at Med. Schools while still in HS. She had to write many essays. She had to have a resume. She had met with many UG and Med. Students as a high schooler as well as profs. This absolutely invaluable experience has helped her tremendously during Med. School application process. </p>

<p>Everybody has a story about their learning experience durign college application. To say that only Ivy leaque applicants got great experiences is huge understatements.</p>

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<p>Miami,</p>

<p>I only talked about Harvard since this is a thread asking about Ivy League. I don’t think I said anywhere only Ivy League applicants can benefit.</p>

<p>I completely agree with you that there can be much gained from the process no matter where you apply to-my son got a lot out applying to other schools as well.</p>

<p>I was simply trying to stay focused on the OP question here and since they indicated they could pay the full COA and were interested in Ivies I was trying to keep it focused on that.</p>

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<p>I understand that OP is asking about chances at Ivy. Sometime we wonder off the central point though. I apologize for doing so, but if we are not discussing chances at Ivy, then other points of application process could be covered from many prospectives. It might be valuable to know that there is life outside of Ivy’s and kids are getting awesome experiences, those of them who work hard, engage themselves in college life …they have to overcome academic challenges (everywhere!!!), involved with kids who have similar interests, learn from each other.</p>

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<p>S2 attended an Ivy football camp and one of the coaches asked about his scores/grades. Suffice it to say that a 1500/2290 and a 4.24 full IB diploma and 11 APs made the coach take notice. Coach told S that they were looking for 1200-1400 CR/M, preferably above 1300. S2 was no athletic star, but a 17 yo 6’4", 250 lb. lineman is good raw material. :wink: Our experience with coaches and recruitment was that S’s numbers were so strong they would not use a tip to get him in, feeling he’d be admitted on straight academics alone.</p>

<p>This actually worked out well for our family, as S decided that a) he didn’t want to apply to any Ivies (though he considered three) and b) he was lukewarm on committing to football in college in favor of exploring other interests. </p>

<p>S1 applied to two Ivies with stellar stats, insane courseload and major awards, was rejected at both. This was fine with him, as he got all four of the schools at the top of his wish list. </p>

<p>RE: recruiting top academic candidates – Caltech personally recruited winners of some of the major science/math competitions three years ago. Didn’t mean they’d admit ya, but they knew who you were!</p>