Chances at Harvard and MIT

Chance Me / Match Me!
1

<p>I am a junior in high school with a 92.0 gpa(3.68 on a 4.0 scale) and I scored a 2040 on my SATs first try, and will retake them again and aim for a 2200 +.
My individual scores were:
math- 730
reading- 670
writing- 640
My ECs are cross country, track and field, and tutoring math. I know these are not competetive stats. However, I have studied very advanced mathematics. This past year, I took calculus I at my high school, while dual enrolling in calculus II at a local college. Calculus at this level is all about memorizing processes without understanding the meaning behind these processes. However, I have extensively studied rigorous calculus using the books MIT uses for their most rigorous calculus courses. I have taught myself 100% of the material in:</p>

<p>Single Variable Calculus with an introduction to linear algera -by Tom M. Apostol</p>

<p>Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra with applications to differential equations and probability - by Tom M. Apostol</p>

<p>Each of these books have at least a year's worth of matherial in them and I have taught myself all of the material within months.</p>

<p>I have also studied differential equations and linear algebra in depth at a rigorous level.</p>

<p>My senior year, I will be taking aruguably the hardest math class at the local college I dual enroll at, Complex Analysis. I will also be taking a year-long independent study in Partial Differential Equations and Integral Equations, since the college doesn't even come close to offering a course this advanced.</p>

<p>Not only do I really understand math at a high level, but I can explain it very well so I can convince others that I really do understand it. When I go for interviews at MIT and Harvard, I will be schedueling additional interviews with the math departments of each school because I know I can impress the professors.</p>

<p>In the long run I want to study theoretical physics including quantum mechanics and string theory, which I am already very familiar with and capable of explaining to some extent.</p>

<p>So I know my statistics are not MIT and Harvard material. But I am possibly the most qualified math student who will be applying to these schools, because even if a few other students have studied comparable math, they probably don't understand it at the level I do, and can't explain it at the level I can. And how many students want to study theoretical physics?</p>

<p>I have an ability to leave a good impression and make myself sound smart. I have great interviewing skills, and I can be extremely convincing.</p>

<p>Will my qualifications make up for my modest gpa and SATs? Any advice is appreciated!!! Thanks in advance!!!</p>

2

<p>"...because even if a few other students have studied comparable math, they probably don't understand it at the level I do, and can't explain it at the level I can."</p>

<p>Hmm, how can you be so sure of that?</p>

3

<p>I guess you're right... I can't be sure of anything because I obviously don't know about every kid in the country... but I do know that I understand it very well, and even if someone else can too, there can't be too many high school kids studying math at that level who understand it that well. I dont have any numbers, but it can't be too common.</p>

4

<p>wow. you are extremely modest. maybe you should focus more on your actual school work. wow.</p>

<p>modest.</p>

5

<p>If you can get your SAT score up to 2200+ I think you will definately get into MIT and have a chance at Harvard!</p>

6

<p>have you taken an amc test? did you qualify for AIME?</p>

7

<p>lolol explorer...no need to be too harsh.
my question for you fuzzy is this: how have you demonstrated your "best in the nation" math ability?<br>
The SAT math score surely doesn't.
You didn't mention participation/awards in AMC/AIME/USAMO etc.</p>

<p>Btw, I know at least 3 from my midwestern city who have taken advanced courses like you. I can bet there are hundreds more on the coasts. If you are as good as you say you are, then hopefully 1) math dept will want to talk with you and 2) you impress them, because you even know that your own stats/ECs wont be impressing them.</p>

8

<p>For one, "Calculus at this level is all about memorizing processes without understanding the meaning behind these processes" is not true. If you have only memorised processes to solve problems, it's going to be useless because the whole point of learning is its application.
Two, I know many students with the similar rigorous course schedules, some who have made it, others who haven't. So, although you might be really good at Maths, you are still a long shot from claiming that you are "possibly the most qualified math student who will be applying to these schools" without any tangible awards to back that up. You need to keep in mind other american students who are enrolled in Maths and Science Academies, as well as Koreans, Singaporeans and Chinese who have extremely high standards of education. In fact, I remember a CC member last year who enrolled in Graduate Math courses in his last year of high school, and he had the awards and IMOs etc to back that up.</p>

<p>I am impressed with the Complex Analysis class you are enrolled in, but a lot of the times, using a math hook, based on topics you have taught yourself can lead to doubts within applications. So try your hardest to convert your math knowledge into awards to help create a comparison for the admissions panel.</p>

<p>Good Luck</p>

9

<p>any math contest results? even I scored 5 on the AIME this year
any SAT math II results? should be 800 easily I hope.</p>

<p>that SAT math score is not very impressive. anyone who is good at math (and careful enough not to make too many stupid mistakes) should be able to score 800.</p>

<p>truthfully, learning advanced math does not equate to being good at math. I did full-out algebra in grade 3 but it didn't help me a bit, and I don't consider myself that good at math.</p>

<p>in a nutshell, convince us that you're good at math and then try to convince the adcoms/professors.</p>

10

<p>I'm sorry if I'm coming off cocky- I'm not trying to. I'm just trying to give an accurate description of myself so you guys can give me good advice. My math skills aren't that I don't make silly mistakes just like everyone else does, but that I really, really understand high-level math. So my 730 math SAT reflects that when it comes to really easy problems, its obviously not that I don't understand it, but that I am not a perfect test taker. There are people I know who scored higher on the math SAT, but haven't even taken calculus, and that is because SAT scores are a reflection of one's test-taking and computational skills, not how well one can understand abstract concepts. My talent is in that I grasp abstract concepts extremely well. </p>

<p>Thank you all for your advice.</p>

11

<p>Well aren't you just Will Hunting? Like others said, if you hope to get in based solely on your math abilities, you need to get 800's on the SAT I and II, score very well on the AIME and enter other math competitions. Also, studying advanced material doesn't make you an ideal MIT candidate. You need to be demonstrating your capacity for problem solving and analysis, which is often done by testing that requires no calculus.</p>

12

<p>I knew someone would bring up Will Hunting :P</p>

13

<p>fuzzy:</p>

<p>Your experiences are eerily similar to my own from high school, so I will give you this advice. Regardless of how qualified you are in math, no matter how much theoretical math you know, nothing will override your SAT score. Regardless of how holistic MIT admissions THINKS their own program to be, it's not, and you will not get into MIT or Harvard with those scores.</p>

<p>Although if you boost your SATs, both schools will surely be in reach, you should be looking at some other colleges that are easier to get into and will give you an equally great opportunity to study.</p>

<p>I was rejected from MIT after taking Multivar, Diff Eq, Linear Algebra, Discrete Math, etc., etc. I also got 5s on Calc BC, Stat, and Physics C as an 11th grader. I instead went to Chicago, was one of 10 first-years to test into Honors Analysis (and about 1 of the 5 who haven't dropped it yet), and I easily have the highest score in the class in my complex analysis course, despite the fact that I'm the only first-year in there. In retrospect, I'm glad I was rejected from MIT due to the fact that I'm now taking MIT graduate equivalent-classes and not being hindered by their (IMHO, way too easy and probably more engineer-oriented) analysis courses.</p>

<p>So start looking at some other universities for math and theoretical physics. The obvious universities to look at are Caltech and Harvey Mudd, although these colleges are also very reliant upon SAT scores in judging applicants. Chicago's a less judgmental school, and you could get in without a doubt if you gave them the information you posted here. There are even some public schools that are extremely blessed in terms of physics and math, in particular, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. If you're good enough to enter into graduate courses at those universities, then you might as well go there instead of Harvard and MIT, as they'll offer you a better education.</p>

<p>I, however, cannot help but be skeptical that you don't have the mathematical background that you say you do. Once you get into the math world, you better be careful when you say 'rigorous', because it will make people overestimate you if you don't have the proper qualifications. If you want to see rigorous linear algebra, you should probably pick up a book called 'Introductory Real Analysis' by Kolmogorov/Fomin (or pick up an Abstract Algebra book). I doubt you've seen rigorous treatment of Diff Eq, as such treatment inevitably requires having mastered complex analysis, a course which you have yet to take.</p>

<p>In any case, as for mathematics advice, I'd tell you to stay away from Apostol. His books' rigor is a bit different from the rigor of the real mathematical world, and even a beginner's analysis book like 'Calculus' by Michael Spivak will give you a more thorough treatment, at least in my opinion. Then try out 'Principles of Mathematical Analysis' by Walter Rudin. The title says it all: these are merely the basic principles of analysis, and you'll have to have mastered every single one of the theorems present in the book to become a true math major.</p>

<p>So try them out. And another note. Don't think that universities will inspire your love for math. You might get into a more comfortable mathematical environment, but this is all that universities are useful for. Classes are a bore, and if you really love math, you'd be better off abstaining from certain classes due to the fact that you could cover the material better and more joyfully independently.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Like others said, if you hope to get in based solely on your math abilities, you need to get 800's on the SAT I and II, score very well on the AIME and enter other math competitions. Also, studying advanced material doesn't make you an ideal MIT candidate. You need to be demonstrating your capacity for problem solving and analysis, which is often done by testing that requires no calculus.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, this is entirely false. For some people, the SAT accurately reflects one's ability to do problem solving, but others struggle with it for unknown reasons. I'm an example: I scored a 670 on the SAT Math I exam, yet I'm in the top 10 of 1300 in the math department of a school which has a 75th percentile SAT Math score of 760. Some people just have difficulties. Don't expect colleges to understand this, though. They won't.</p>

<p>In conclusion, though, I'd actually like to say that success in mathematics doesn't at all depend on standardized test scores (needless to say) or even grades, since many students such as, say, Einstein or Godel, hated their math courses. Passion, hard work, and a mathematical mind (all of which the OP has proven he has) will bring you all that you need.</p>

14

<p>"any math contest results? even I scored 5 on the AIME this year
any SAT math II results? should be 800 easily I hope.</p>

<p>that SAT math score is not very impressive. anyone who is good at math (and careful enough not to make too many stupid mistakes) should be able to score 800.</p>

<p>truthfully, learning advanced math does not equate to being good at math. I did full-out algebra in grade 3 but it didn't help me a bit, and I don't consider myself that good at math.</p>

<p>in a nutshell, convince us that you're good at math and then try to convince the adcoms/professors."</p>

<p>Since when is a 730, not very impressive...and anyone good at math should get an 800?</p>

<p>I completely understand saying he isn't qualified for other reasons, but because he "only" got a 730...that's probably 2 wrong 1 omit or something along those lines. Admissions officers won't go "Oh, he may have typed 2 things wrong in his calculator or mis gridded! He's not MIT/Harvard material! Every good math student studys for 2 hours a day since 7th grade ensuring that they get an 800! This kid must be dumb! 730!</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
Since when is a 730, not very impressive...and anyone good at math should get an 800?</p>

<p>I completely understand saying he isn't qualified for other reasons, but because he "only" got a 730...that's probably 2 wrong 1 omit or something along those lines. Admissions officers won't go "Oh, he may have typed 2 things wrong in his calculator or mis gridded! He's not MIT/Harvard material! Every good math student studys for 2 hours a day since 7th grade ensuring that they get an 800! This kid must be dumb! 730!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I didn't mean my words to be that strong. But 730 is really not that impressive if you're applying to MIT and Harvard and math is your strong point... either it shows lack of ability, or quite a lot of carelessness. I'm pretty sure you can get 2-3 questions wrong and still score 800, meaning 730 is around 5-8(?) mistakes.</p>

16

<p>geeeeeeeeeez. get some safeties up in here.</p>

17

<p>Although you certainly have high level math courses under your belt that most students never even study, I assure you, you are not the best math student in the country. Get rid of that arrogant mentality of yours, it's gonna hurt you. </p>

<p>I myself will have finished at least differential equations by the time I graduate HS and although you will most likely have taken higher level math classes than me, I know of many people who are more capable than me at math. One of my friend is a IMO gold medalist (in our grade) and has finished discrete mathematics last semester. I don't know where you get your confidence from.. it seems like you just read books while most people took classes. I highly doubt that you are "better" than those people who actually took standard length classes when all you did was practically skim books.</p>

18

<p>Well fuzzy, I don't doubt your ability in math. I think the most practical thing to do now is to compete in several competitions that will prove and ascertain to the universities that this guy is really competent in math. Taking SAT II math I and II will really help your cause too. Gd luck!</p>

19

<p>Look, even if you are a math genius here is the problem: Harvard and MIT want you to take THEIR math, despite how rigorous your community college curriculum might have been. They would rather see that you took AP classes or IB classes that community college classes (this is just how it is). Your 3.68 GPA isn't bad, and they probably will look further into your app, but your interests aren't varied enough for Harvard and I'm sure there are more advanced math students applying to MIT (though if your skills are what you say they are, than congrats). I would not go in trying to "impress the professors" because they will likely see it as arrogance. Rather, discuss their research or theorems with them. If they see that you are truly interested in learning from them, rather than showing off the skills you have already acquired, I think you stand a much better chance. Also, don't do yourself the disservice of assuming that you are the only student who has taken such rigorous math. As a sophomore I have already completed through AP Calc and have the possibility of going into multivariable calculus next year.</p>

20

<p>Actually, one wrong is somewhere around a 770-790, so he probably got 3, maybe 4 wrong. Anyways, Mr. Modest, though your math is above amazing(not that your ego needs a bigger boost), you still need to improve your other areas. Your math is like getting a 2400 on the SATs, it is very nice and a pretty good hook, but if you don't have the ECs and GPA to back it up, it is nothing but a shot in the dark.</p>