Chances at some British universities

<p>jwagner, you are mistaken about the Times rankings...the Times newspaper education section will continue to produce its own university league table, and has already published its statistics for 2007, in which St. Andrews placed 18th, but not under the "Good University Guide" name. A table under the name "Good University Guide" was put out by the commercial, as opposed to academic, enterprise you mention, but it is neither reliable nor respected, and neither does it have any kind of track record- for example, how can its statistics on degree outcomes and employment be monitored for year on year accuracy as it is in its first year? </p>

<p>It is true that both St. Andrews and Aber have excellent IR Departments, but overall, whlie St. Andrews certainly is a good university, it is not outstanding. Aberystwyth is a second or third tier university. Upsilamba is also interested in languages, and would be better served at many other universities for this.</p>

<p>More importantly, You omit the Times Higher Education Supplement, one of the most comprehensive and best. The criticisms levelled at the SJTU rankings, for example, their bias toward science and engineering, don't apply to the THES tables. The THES releases its world rankings in the autumn. You have to subscribe to the onlne edition to get access this document, but the THES offers a free fourteen day trial, which is how most get access. I'll just go look up 2006.</p>

<p>Upsilamba doesn't meet the mimimum standards for the LSE. Read their country specific admissions pages:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/studentRecruitment/country/usapage.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/studentRecruitment/country/usapage.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Also, the LSE does NOT offer languages at degree level. Although students can study a language in the LSE Language Centre, no formal degree supports or qualifications are offered.</p>

<p>You are also correct about the War Studies Department at King's. However, because it is a highly prized department, it is correspondingly difficult to get into, some say as difficult as Law. I don't think Upsilamba's chances are at all good there, especially since s/he only has one history AP from several years ago, and at 4.</p>

<p>It's a bit unfair of you to give advice to a high schooler unless you are well informed.</p>

<p>Links forthcoming...</p>

<p>i would say your EC profile (or lack thereof) would make applying to UK a fine choice. i come from an oxbridge feeder high school so we get bombed with propaganda about british schools quite often.</p>

<p>i say british schools look only at your AP scores. ECs hardly matter unless they are exceptionally spectacular such that your GC will write it in your statement. otherwise the adcom will not know about your ECs. where interviews are concerned, they look at your aptitude in the subject and demonstrated interest.</p>

<p>more on ECs, spectacular ECs mean like olympiad medals. Camb Trin Col's website encourages only those with international medals to apply.</p>

<p>Oxbridge is a stretch for everyone. But everywhere else in the UK is definitely less selective than american schools of the same national ranking.</p>

<p>hope that helps</p>

<p>True about the ECAs, not true of the selectivity of the top 5-7 UK universities. The G5- Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, LSE, UCL, and include also Warwick for prestige and difficulty, are all hard to get into. Additionally, particular courses at good universities are always exceptionally difficult to get into- Law at King's College, London for example.</p>

<p>What is an "oxbridge feeder high school"? Even US private international IB World Schools don't describe themselves like that, and they are the nearest equivalent to this in that they send high proportions of students to excellent international universities. Are you/were you at a UK secondary school which sends many students to Oxford and Cambridge?</p>

<p>Binvolio:</p>

<p>The Times announced in May that they would not be publishing a league table for 2008. They may publish new league tables in the future, but as of now the Good University Guide is being published by Price Waterhouse Coopers and Mayfield Consultants. The latter are the same group that formerly produced the guide with the Times. The idea that somehow this guide is flawed because of its association with a “commercial” rather than “academic” enterprise is wrong. The Times newspaper, like Price Waterhouse Coopers, is a commercial enterprise. Academic consultancy for the Times guide was provided by Mayfield, which now works with Price Waterhouse. The point is that little, outside of name and ownership, has changed. The methodology is basically the same and the data is being compiled by the same people. The reason that the guide is viewed as “reliable” is that little has changed, and the parties involved clearly note that fact. Also, you keep using last year’s Times ranking, which placed St Andrews at 18th. This is probably the lowest St Andrews has been ranked by any domestic guide over the past five years. In fact, in years prior the Times themselves ranked St Andrews 6th and 10th. </p>

<p>I never claimed that Upsilamba would be well served at Aberystwyth; my only mention of Aberystwyth noted the fact that they have a top IR program. Further, your claim that St Andrews is less than outstanding represents an opinion, largely unsupported by facts.</p>

<p>You misunderstand my points on world rankings. These attempts are flawed for two reasons: their biased toward particular fields, which you’ve seemed to recognize, and they do not effectively recognize the unique qualities of some outstanding institutions. These rankings try to evaluate institutions based on a particular model, which happens to favor large research institutions. This is why small liberal arts college don’t fair well in world rankings. In many ways, St Andrews is like a moderately-sized liberal arts institution and therefore it may not fair quite as well in these rankings. </p>

<p>Upsilamba may not meet the minimum published requirements, but this does not mean that all hope is lost. I know a number of people at the LSE who achieved less than the stated requirements, but because of their circumstances, and the fact that they were fee-paying Americans, they were accepted. It seems that the primary interest is international relations, with a secondary focus on languages. The OP mentioned majoring in international relations and perhaps minoring in a language. Though the LSE wouldn’t allow someone to “minor” in a particular language, the opportunity to receive a top notch IR degree and become fluent in a language is clearly available. I wouldn’t be so pedantic as to exclude this option because of this minor detail.</p>

<p>You make claims about the difficulty of getting into the War Studies program at KCL, relying on what people “say” for support, but the data do not agree. This admission standards stuff is not guesswork, nor should it be based on conjecture. The tariff scores are published and available. Requirements at St Andrews and the LSE are far higher than those at KCL. Your argument that KCL would be a reach, while St Andrews is a walk in the park is weak. </p>

<p>Disclaimer: I’m a former graduate student in international relations at St Andrews. I conducted research at Cambridge, the LSE, Aberystwyth, and KCL.</p>

<p>Thank you very much everybody! You've helped me a lot.</p>

<p>jwagner,
If there is no substantial difference in personnel, methodology, and data, between the Times 2007 university tables and the Good University Guide for 2007, please explain why the Times ranks St. Andrews as joint eighteenth, and the 2007 Good University Guide ranks it as fourth? If it is perhaps that the Times' set of figures applies to 2006 and the new Good University Guide to 2007, then that's a very big difference in a crowded and unforgiving field. I read the trade UK higher education press every week, and this putative and meteoric rise seems to have escaped notice all year.</p>

<p>Here's the link again for you:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/displayPopup/0,,102571,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/displayPopup/0,,102571,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you can't explain this, then I really should assume your post is waffle, and that you're oversensitive about the status of a university you attended. On fora like this you may encounter posters with some inside knowledge who are more likely to challenge the claims St. Andrews makes for itself and are less likely to accept the anodyne gloss presented to the American market. British university education is expensive and many young and impressionable students incur lasting debt pursuing it. It's entirely appropriate in a mass forum to question, examine, and debate matters such as reputation and content.</p>

<p>You're making a mistake in trying to approximate a British higher education institution to a particularly American institution, the LAC. A parallel institution doesn't exist in the UK, and I'm guessing that St. Andrews doesn't aspire to this categorisation, even for the American market. As to its admissions, read my post and noct's post carefully- it's easy FOR AMERICANS-the University has built up a reputation among and a relationship with Americans and wants to keep that going, not least for financial reasons.</p>

<p>With respect to Upsilamba, becoming fluent in a second or third modern foreign language will be difficult without a very substantial period of time spent in the country in which the language is spoken- that's why all UK degrees with a language component require a language year abroad. That's also why EC programs like Socrates/Erasmus were set up. Working on a language in evening classes in the absence of lectures, seminars, or departmental support just isn't the same thing, more so because the student is already working on a demanding degree. It's entirely possible to beaver away independently and at the end of a few years have a decent working knowledge of a language, but it's not the same thing as fluency and it's not a minor detail. Consider the competition for jobs in IR and related fields: many candidates, who come from all over the world, offer functional bilingualism as a minimum.</p>

<p>King's has good, and some excellent, languages departments. I don't know if War Studies is offered with German.</p>

<p>As to the LSE, you don't seem to realise how difficult it is to be admitted to the LSE as a degree, as opposed to an affiliate, undergraduate. Upsilamba is not minimally qualified for admission, and s/he will not get an offer at this point. After a year of college in the US s/he has a chance of admission to the first year of an LSE degree program. The LSE stress that the minimum qualifications published on its website really are minimums; they are also famous for meaning what they say and for not negotiating; they don't need to. Perhaps your experiences were from some years ago because a supple undergraduate admissions climate certainly doesn't exist there now. Your claim that Upsilamba as an overseas fee paying applicant will receive special consideration doesn't wash either. The LSE is flooded with overseas fee paying undergraduate applicants, including many from Asia, who are very well qualified indeed. Beyond the financial considerations, the LSE wants, in fairness, to admit students who will be able to cope academically and that is why they specify minimal requirements. Upsilamba may well be admitted in the future and should by all means try, but not with the qualifications detailed here.</p>

<p>Did you earn a degree at St. Andrews? In practice, graduate students can use libraries, and to some extent other facilities, at other universities, particularly at copyright libraries, like Cambridge, and at those with specialist and large collections. Usually your department at your home university writes you a letter and that will give you access. In the UK, 'doing research' is often taken to mean 'doing a research degree' at X university. Are you claiming to have done a research degree at Cambridge, at the LSE, at Aberystwyth, and at KCL as well, or did you use their facilities for your work, and that's why you claim to have 'conducted research'?</p>

<p>A few points:</p>

<p>Within the “the crowded and unforgiving” field that you mention, rankings fluctuate wildly year to year. Universities move up and down the rankings because they make relative gains or losses in relation to indicators; some of these indicators are weighted more heavily than others and, therefore, affect rankings to a greater degree. For example, the Good University Guide (both iterations) place significant weight on admission requirements. In regard to St Andrews’ improvement in the Good University Guide rankings, they made relative gains in a number of indicators. For example, from 2006 to 2007 the admission requirements at St Andrews have jumped significantly. This, among other things, has helped to improve their ranking. In short, the personnel, methodology, and types of data haven’t changed, but St Andrews stats have improved. </p>

<p>In regards to your lecture on the “expense” of education in Britain and the “appropriate” use of open forums, play me the world’s smallest violin. You’ve come on this forum and made derisive claims, which are little supported by fact or proper argumentation. Thus far, you’ve expressed no direct experience with St Andrews, but lots of opinions, and perhaps someone should hold you accountable. As for sensitivity, I should note that in the two most recent rankings, the Guardian and the Good University Guide, St Andrews seems to have displaced a couple of universities from the top five, including UCL. I wonder who might be sensitive.</p>

<p>My point is that St Andrews is in many ways similar to a LAC, not that it wants to be considered as such. World-wide rankings do not tend to favor these types of institutions. As I acknowledged earlier, it may be a bit easier for Americans to gain admission to St Andrews because the university is looking to increase its international student population. This does not mean that getting accepted is easy, but rather than it’s easier for an American than someone from the United Kingdom. You argued that St Andrews, more so than many other universities, is willing to accept Americans. This is not supported by any facts, but it is your opinion. I like opinions, just not unsupported opinions. In reality, most British universities would love to take more Americans, increased income being a significant interest, but few have a reputation in the United States, which is enjoyed by St Andrews.</p>

<p>Becoming fluent in a second or third modern foreign language will be difficult without a significant amount of time spent in-country, but not impossible. This comes down to personal priorities; if Upsilamba wants an education in IR, but also desires some language training, then the LSE is a good option. If IR and language are prioritized equally, then not so much. Many candidates for positions in IR come from around the world and speak a variety of languages; this will provide them with some advantages. Most likely, no one taking a university language course will be able to reach the same level of fluency as a native speaker while in school. This will take years, while in the mean time other valuable credentials are to be earned, including an IR degree from the LSE. </p>

<p>Some good points on the LSE’s admissions, but you seem to be unaware of their desire to increase intake of American students. The LSE does get plenty of applications, but the number of students applying is not necessarily relevant. In global education, it’s all about markets. The LSE has done very well in the European and Asian markets; its strategic plans, though, include moving further into the American market, thus the malleable standards for American applicants. I’m not saying that Upsilamba will be accepted by the LSE, but rather that it’s worth a shot applying.</p>

<p>I see where you’re going with questions on the particulars of my background. Let’s just say that I’m well acquainted with some of the top IR programs in the United Kingdom. I’d rather keep your attention on the topic, rather than my CV. I'm not disclosing information to brag, but rather to show that I have some experience with these institutions and maybe a little bit of bias.</p>

<p>It seems that life is full of surprises. Just when I go on about how the Times released a statement suggesting that no rankings would be conducted this year, they go and release this:</p>

<p><a href="http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/gug/gooduniversityguide.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/gug/gooduniversityguide.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>binvolio: Note the similarities between the Good University Guide rankings and these new Times rankings? The top ten is nearly a match; pay particular attention to the #5 slot...</p>

<p>Those are the good university guide statistics produced by Mayfield et al which you discussed before, as distinct from these, which I quoted above:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/displayPopup/0,,102571,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/displayPopup/0,,102571,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As promised, here is the link to the Times Higher Education Supplement's ranking of the world's top 200 universities:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thes.co.uk/statistics/international_comparisons/2006/top_unis.aspx?window_type=popup%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thes.co.uk/statistics/international_comparisons/2006/top_unis.aspx?window_type=popup&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>St. Andrews is rated well below some of Upsilamba's other choices, LSE, UCL, KCL, Edinburgh.</p>

<p>It's a good university, but not of the calibre, in comparison with others, which it suggests. </p>

<p>The THES new ratings will be out in the autumn.</p>

<p>If you don't want the places at which you have studied discussed, don't make them public in a chat room.</p>

<p>OOPS: because the Times Higher Education Supplement is subscription only, I see that the link doesn't take you to the tables. For free access to the complete tables and accompanying articles discussing methodologies,etc., you have to take out a 14 day trial subscription. Go to:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thes.co.uk%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thes.co.uk&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Here are the data from the Times Higher Education Supplement which are relevant to this discussion:</p>

<p>The first group represents the THES world ranking of the university and the second group represents the THES European ranking of the university.</p>

<p>World: LSE 17, UCL 25, Edinburgh 33, KCL 46, St. Andrews 109.</p>

<p>Europe: LSE 4, UCL 7, Edinburgh 8, KCL 12, St. Andrews 45.</p>

<p>Perhaps a bit harsh on St. Andrews, but there you are.</p>

<p>Stop misleading people with outdated statistics. The link that I posted has nothing to do with the Mayfield ranking, but leads to the Times Good University Guide 2008 rankings that were released yesterday. You're posting a previous year's ranking, which has been updated and, therefore, does not reflect the current positioning of universities in the United Kingdom. See these links:</p>

<p>Link: <a href="http://www.thegooduniversityguide.org.uk/league_static.php?auth=1&startNum=1&endNum=12&order_by=rank%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thegooduniversityguide.org.uk/league_static.php?auth=1&startNum=1&endNum=12&order_by=rank&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Link: <a href="http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/gug/gooduniversityguide.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/gug/gooduniversityguide.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>A couple of articles on the Times 2008 rankings can be found here:</p>

<p>Link: <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article2267821.ece%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article2267821.ece&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Link: <a href="http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/news/Title,15080,en.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/news/Title,15080,en.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As a recap, three of the major rankings in the United Kingdom place St Andrews in the top five; a forth places it in the top ten; another does not.</p>

<p>Oh, and I have no problem discussing any university on this forum, but let's keep our claims, especially those that are a bit more controversial, rooted in the facts.</p>