Chances at some British universities

Chance Me / Match Me!
1

<p>caucasian, female, middle class, solid but not one of the very top public school (according to some website that ranks schools it was 37/660 in Michigan, but I'm not sure how reputable, etc. the website is), from Michigan </p>

<p>GPA: 3.865 (uw, don't know weighted)
Class Rank: 44/293
PSAT: 233
SAT: 760 R, 720 M, 660 W (didn't do too bad on the multiple choice, but totally bombed the essay for some reason; I'm normally good at writing-type things)
ACT: 34
Likely to become a National Merit semi-finalist (see PSAT score), possibly a finalist
APUSH 4
AP Eng Lang 4
SAT II: 730 USH, 780 Lit</p>

<p>Taking two classes at WUSTL over the summer (literature and world history), and so far it seems as if I'll get somewhere between a B+ and an A in them.</p>

<p>Freshman:
American Studies (two-hour block class, English and US history) A
German I A
AGS II (algebra, geometry, and statistics) A
Earth Space Science (semester) A
Integrated Physical Science (sem.) A
Orchestra A</p>

<p>Sophomore:
Literature and Composition (sem.) A
Speech B+
Biology A
Economics (sem.) A
US Government (sem.) A
Orchestra A
German II A
AGS III A</p>

<p>Junior: (not sure of the grades, but I think the average is an A-)
APUSH
Pre-Calc
AP Eng Lang
Orchestra
German III
Chemistry</p>

<p>I've taken the most challenging schedule possible so far, excepting science classes (just took Chem last year instead of AP Bio) and taking orchestra instead of another academic class.</p>

<p>Next year:
AP English Lit
AP Calculus
Honors Humanities (two hour block class for one English credit and one social studies credit; students have taken AP Art History afterwards; could maybe take AP Euro afterwards if I do some self studying)
German IV (not officially AP, but I'll most likely be taking the test)
Gym (required for graduation)</p>

<p>I'll probably be able to get all As or A-'s next year.</p>

<p>Extra-Curricular Activities: (when I say present I mean I plan on continuing them through senior year)
Destination Imagination: first grade through the present
Violin: school (as a class) orchestra, 5th through 11th; private lessons, 5th through the present
World Cultures Club (at school, like a combination of the language clubs with some other cultures thrown in): 10th through present
I attempted to join German club freshman year, but it dissolved after just a couple meetings due to lack of participation
Quiz Bowl: 10th through present</p>

<p>Awards:
likely a national merit semi-finalist, possibly a finalist
various academic awards throughout school (don't remember what subjects I got them in)</p>

<p>I'm planning on studying International Relations and (if possible) double majoring (or minoring) in German, Arabic, or Italian. I know programs of study are more narrow at British universities, but from lists I've seen IR plus a language seems like a combination that would work.</p>

<p>Schools:</p>

<p>University of Saint Andrews
University of Wales - Aberystwyth
London School of Economics and Political Science
University of Edinburgh
University of Wales - Cardiff
King's College London
School of International Studies
University College London</p>

<p>Any other suggestions would be appreciated too. I'm only going to apply to two or three overseas schools at the maximum, so I'm trying to choose one that are high-quality and have enough international recognition (I'm planning on attending grad school), but that I still have enough of a chance of getting into to make it worth applying.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

2

<p>It is my personal guess that no one knows anything or at least everyone knows very little about british schools. I personally have no idea concerning your chances. Your class rank is the only aspect that looks suspect but if I would compare your chances in the US to the UK I would say you would have a good shot at getting into schools like UVA, JHU, Carleton, Northwestern etc.</p>

3

<p>BIG Reaches: St. Andrew's and London School of Economics</p>

<p>The above are the tippy top of UK education up there with Oxford, Cambridge, etc. LSE is actually third ranked and then St. Andrew's fourth.</p>

<p>More Reasonable: Edinburgh</p>

<p>I know kids who've gone there who aren't top students. If you can get into Bates/Occidental than you can probably get into Edinburgh.</p>

<p>I don't know enough about the rest.</p>

<p>Buy a guide to UK colleges and look at that. AND research the application used for the UK system. It's due earlier than US applications.</p>

4

<p>Thanks. I'll go take a look at the bookstore tomorrow.</p>

5

<p>The only one I can give you advice about is LSE. I think you would have a very tough time there purely because of your AP's. I think you need 5 or 6 all with grades of 4 or 5. Then your next biggest problem would be academics; the class rank is not very good but the GPA is ok. </p>

<p>Also, your EC's are of absolutely no worth if you apply to British Universities because they only care about academics.</p>

<p>Good Luck.</p>

6

<p>Thanks. Do you know if there'd be a place on the application to indicate what AP tests I'll be taking this upcoming year?</p>

7

<p>Maybe. But they don't care what you'll take. They care about your scores.</p>

8

<p>If I'm not taking the tests until mid-May, does that mean that I won't find out if I've been accepted or not until then? US schools want replies to admissions offers by May 1 (generally), so how am I supposed to know if any of the British schools would accept me?</p>

9

<p><a href="http://www.ucas.ac.uk/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ucas.ac.uk/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Do some research.</p>

10

<p>You should also be aware of the difference in rigor/age level between the US and UK educational systems. High School there is very different from here and you may want to make sure you'll be ok with the transition before applying.</p>

11

<p>Is it true that high school is more rigorous in the UK than here?</p>

12

<p>UK students have a year more of high school/secondary school than American students, and then they (typically) have a year less of college/university.</p>

13

<p>But to answer your question, TruthfuLie, yes high school is harder. A Levels are APs on LOTS of speed and they require more mastery and less bubbling.</p>

14

<p>If you haven't taken enough APs for them to unconditionally accept you, they'll have your teacher predict your AP grades and if they like you and your predicted grades enough they'll give you a provisional acceptance, which will only go into affect assuming you meet the predictions.</p>

15

<p>I'm kinda thinking of filing an app to Oxford just so I can tell people for the rest of my life that I applied to Oxford (and I don't know, I have enough AP grades to get in, with God's grace.) But looking through the application was fairly amusing. Where American applications have a few options for title such as 'Mr.' and 'Ms.', the British application has like fifty, including all the title of nobility and military ranks. I wonder if they'd consider it lying if I styled myself a Duke.</p>

16

<p>One of their security questions for the application was, "Where was your favourite holiday?" The 'incorrect' grammar offended me, until I realized that 'holiday' in Great Britain means 'vacation.' Heh.</p>

17

<p>This should be posted in the "International Students" forum- you might get more replies.</p>

18

<p>Upsilamba - a few points; the UK and US higher education systems are quite different. First, you apply to study a particular course at a specific university, for example, English with French at King's College London. All undergraduate applications are handled through UCAS</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ucas.ac.uk%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ucas.ac.uk&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>and you are allowed five course choices, so you have nothing to lose by applying for five. Students do not do general studies/common studies requirements but there are some opportunities for them to take classes in different or related departments. The majority of undergraduate degrees are three years in length, with the common exception of modern langauges degrees, where usually the third year is spend in the country of the main or single subject language concentration.</p>

<p>Much is left up to you in terms of your studies- there is less micromanaging and more independence- much assessment is by end of year formal examination.</p>

<p>As to your chances at specific universities, they are mixed because you have mentioned quite a range. Except for two on your list, St. Andrews, and to some degree, Edinburgh, admissions staff will consider externally assessed examinations in specific subjects to be by far the most important criteria for admission. As you are not doing the IB, then the only qualifications which you can offer in this category are AP exams. You have two, English Language and US History, at grade 4. By the time you get your results for the AP English Literature and the AP Calculus the admissions cycle will be over for the year- the UCAS deadline for 2008 entry is 15 January 2008, while the exams are given in May 2008 and the results are released in July 2008. Some universities might accept a predicted grade, some definitely will not as you are only offering two middling AP grades on paper.</p>

<p>In general, the SAT I and the SAT II multiple choice tests are not regarded as a major criterion for entry to the best universities. They are a secondary consideration, or a tie breaker. At the best UK universities, the SAT II subject tests are considered to be very poor relations of the AP and especially the IB. The ECAs are usually irrelevant- pick your very best one and make sure it is closely related to the degree subject you propose to undertake and mention it in your personal statement. GPA is not usually considered as very reliable and counts little towards admissions in the UK.</p>

<p>Specifics:</p>

<p>There isn't a university called "School of International Studies"- this sounds like a department or a faculty of one of the universities you have mentioned.</p>

<p>LSE and UCL- you will not be admitted to a full degree at this stage.</p>

<p>King's College London: maybe</p>

<p>Edinburgh: dubious, but possible. Edinburgh and St. Andrews do market themselves extensively to Americans, and there are more similarities between the Scottish and the US systems, so they may make more effort to 'translate' your record. St. Andrews is generally very overrated by Americans. While it is a good university, and has several excellent departments, American perceptions of St. Andrews as a top British university are not correct. It ranks in the top 20 or so out of 110 universities- good, bu not stellar. It has proportionately the largest number of American degree-seeking (as opposed to JYA) undergraduates of any UK university- about 15%. Because of this relationship, you may find they are willing to look at your record with more 'American' eyes, and your SAT results will count for more. I do not know about the GPA. St. Andrews is relatively easy to get into for American undergraduates.</p>

<p>You mention that you would like to include foreign languages as part of your degree. UK universities usually expect some evidence of study and achievement, measurable by international standards, in languages which are commonly taught in UK schools: Spanish, French, German, Russian, and occasionally, Italian. If the widely taught major European languages are a major part of your degree (here, look for the degree title: if the degree is titled something like this- International Relations AND Spanish, then each subject is usually half of the degree, while if the title is International Relations WITH Spanish, then IR counts for 3/4 and Spanish for 1/4), universities will want a good AP at 4/5 or at the very least, an SAT II (with listening) at at least 700. For other global languages which form a major part of the degree, they will want to see some evidence of ability at foreign languages.</p>

<p>Cardiff- it is a big Russell Group research university, again, good, but not stellar. Many think it is increasing in prestige. I do not know if you will get in there.</p>

<p>Aberystwyth: picturesque, but probably not worth the fees you are going to be charged unless you have really good specific reasons for going there.</p>

<p>Finally, there is virtually no chance of an American undergraduate getting financial aid at any decent UK university. There are a very few partial scholarships at a very few good universities. Sorry, but I doubt that you would be considered. US regulations on the international portability of Federal public aid are Stafford Loans yes, Pell Grants no.</p>

<p>I don't mean to be discouraging, but these fora are not the best places in which to consider your possibilities- do research first, then ask specific questions.</p>

19

<p>SES: St. Andrews is not reliably ranked at fourth in the UK. Most of the UK and International academic league tables put it closer to 20th.</p>

<p>The Times:
<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/displayPopup/0,,102571,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/displayPopup/0,,102571,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Shanghai Jiao Tong University World University Rankings:
<a href="http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ARWU2007_102-202.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ARWU2007_102-202.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>See also the Sunday Times and the Times Higher Education Supplement tables.</p>

<p>You must have been reading St. Andrews' own publicity.</p>

20

<p>Upsilamba: You have great stats, so many of the universities on your list will be options. For international relations, the top three universities on your list include the LSE, St Andrews, and Aberystwyth. A few of the other programs are outstanding in particular subfields—think KCL for war studies—but these three are probably the strongest across the board. Programs in the United Kingdom are far more narrowly focused that those found in the United States. Perhaps you should think more about your specific interests and marry those with the strengths of particular programs. As for admission standards, St Andrews, the LSE, and Edinburgh have the highest requirements for international relations of those on your list. Most of the universities offer some form of politics/international relations paired with a language, so this should not be much of a problem. In my opinion, apply for St Andrews and the LSE, then choose one other based on your specific interests.</p>

<p>This thread has some skewed opinions on rankings. First off, I’d view rankings with some skepticism. Any world ranking, such as the Shanghai Jiao Tong University World University Ranking, will tend to be all over the place. Take a look and you will see that the low placement of many prestigious schools seems to defy reality. The truth is that such rankings are biased toward specific disciplines, such as science and engineering, and should be taken with a grain of salt. The widely-followed UK rankings include those offered by the Guardian, the Sunday Times, and the Times Good University Guide. Of note, the Times Good University Guide recently dissolved and the dataset has been taken over by a collaboration between Mayfield Consultants and Price Waterhouse Coopers. Their new 2008 Good University Guide rankings were released a couple of weeks ago. The rankings for St Andrews are as follows:</p>

<p>Sunday Times: 10th
Guardian: 4th
Good University Guide: 5th</p>

<p>The idea that most of the league tables place St Andrews around 20th is just plain wrong. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to PM me.</p>