Chances for Ivies as an international student (who went to high school in America)

Chance Me / Match Me!
1

I posted this in a Harvard thread, but it’s prolly more appropriate here. What are my chances for schools like Dartmouth, Brown, Amherst, Cornell? I applied to Harvard EA because it’s the reachiest of my reach schools, but I’d like to know if I should apply to many other top schools RD, or if I’d be wasting my money?

This was the original thread: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/1787911-official-harvard-scea-class-of-2020-applicant-thread-p1.html

This is what I said:

I’m applying from Ireland. I’m from England, though, and lived in America between 2007-14 (I’m on a gap year now and will be going back to America soon). What do you guys think of my Harvard chances? More importantly, since that’s very unlikely, would I also be a strong candidate for other top schools RD?

  1. Why are you applying to Harvard for SCEA?
    I have a few top reach schools that I’m taking a shot at, but Harvard was the only one that was Early Action rather than Early Decision (didn’t want to risk getting accepted to a school ED and not get a sufficient finaid package as an “international” student). It’s a school I’d love to go to for numerous reasons, and with Early I thought I’d have the best chance. Since it’s the most selective school I’m applying to, I thought it best to go early to improve my odds, however slightly. Parents also encouraged me to apply.

  2. What draws you to Harvard?
    Prestige and the impressive people that make up the campus community and alumni network were for sure the initial points of interest. I also have a friend and a few acquaintances that go there and many relatives in Boston (one older cousin doing a fellowship at MIT).

  3. What makes Harvard stand out from other schools?
    See above. It’s got the best international brand for any America school, methinks.

  4. Where else are you applying for RD?
    For sure Amherst, Dartmouth, Brown, NYU, Kalamazoo College and UChicago. My Common App has all 20 school spots filled up, but I won’t apply to them all. I’ve also already applied to U of M and a few small schools in Michigan with rolling admissions.

Note that I applied to college 2 years ago before I was forced to take time out (this is my second gap year). I was accepted into Michigan but had to defer my application. Rejected from Yale, Columbia, Penn, Oxford and Cambridge (since you can’t apply to both of those in the same year, I applied to them in two consecutive years and was rejected from both after interview). Stupidly, I didn’t apply to any safety schools that might have given me finaid, which Michigan didn’t. Back then I didn’t realize I wouldn’t be eligible for loans because I was in America on my dad’s work visa and not a green card.

  1. What are your qualifications?
    At a very good public school: 3.95 GPA, 34 ACT, 5’s on 5 APs and a 4 on a 6th, currently the editor of an international online film magazine, edited the school paper in high school, captain of the debate team, film & media leadership position on the FIRST robotics team, a few other leadership positions & activities in high school, lots of gap year experience (lived in 3 countries, learned many skills and done many personal creative projects alongside my internship with the aforementioned film magazine). I took the gap year for financial reasons, and because my family was moving to spend a year in Europe (that’s my main concern about the gap year - I didn’t choose to do it on my own, it was a family thing and I had no choice really, but I explained this on my application). Also taking some classes right now, both in person and online.

  2. What are your summer plans?
    This question is kind of moot now, but last summer I wrote & started making a feature film with my friends. We didn’t finish it, though. This summer I moved from France to Ireland. Highlight activities include mountain climbing and learning to boat/fish.

  3. What is your intended major?
    At Harvard it would be Visual and Environmental Studies. Everywhere else, Film Studies. Would like to do a second major in either English or Political Science. That will be decided once I’m in college. (For schools that don’t offer film studies, I’d do English).

  4. What are your hobbies/interests/extracurriculars?
    Most of them mentioned above. I write daily film reviews, and linked my online film diary on my common app. Also interested in photography, music, politics, literature, writing, and filmmaking.

  5. What tips/advice do you have for applying?
    I guess this only applies to people doing RD now, but as someone who’s applying for the third year in a row (not to Harvard, to college), I would say, the more time you spend planning, the better - especially essays. My essay this year is much more personal than the one I wrote 2 years ago, and I’m hoping that will make me a better candidate. Have critical people read your essays. Most importantly, have safety schools.

2

Confusing – why did you take 2 gap years? Going to admit. I read this three times, and you come off as sort of flakey and unrealistic (sorry, but it is just not clear). Your odds seem low for top schools, esp. Harvard. Why do you think you can afford to attend other schools like Michigan now when you couldn’t before?

You mention taking classes now – are they college classes? Even CC classes can result in you being classified as a transfer instead of a freshman.

3

Thanks for the honesty of your reply.

@Gap years - yeah, kind of a complicated story. My family moved to America in 2007 on an L1 visa, making me an L2 dependent. This means I am classed as an international student when applying, which makes it harder for me to get financial aid and scholarships. I didn’t know this (nor did my parents) when I applied for college 2 years ago, and so didn’t know I wouldn’t be able to go to Michigan if I got in. That part was my own fault. However, just after I started my first gap year, my dad’s job was transferred to Europe. Based on some requirement for L1 visa holders trying to get a greencard, he needed a year’s work experience overseas as a manager before coming back to America and getting a greencard within one year, which we are doing now (http://www.immihelp.com/l1-visa/l1-visa-based-greencard.html).

The reason I took the second gap year was because my family was/is still overseas and they couldn’t afford to send me back to America on my own. I also wouldn’t be able to go to school in the UK because I’m also counted as an international student there, too. But I don’t regret the gap year, it’s been a good experience.

@Afford Michigan - I am classed as an in-state student, so we could afford the first year. I didn’t know about this earlier because U of M changed their rules in 2014 to allow internationals who had graduated from Michigan high schools to get in-state fees. Also, we will likely get our green cards within the year based on the rule linked above, which will then make me eligible for student loans.

@Classes - they are not college classes, the ones I’m taking in person are adult classes run through the local high school. The classes are in photography and conflict resolution. The online classes are through Coursera, so they’re free. And I don’t think that’s true about community college, either, I’ve heard differently from most other sources. But I’m not taking CC classes anyway.

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But @intparent I am worrying if my gap years will be a red flag on admissions, and whether or not they will treat it as something preventable (which it really wasn’t) or a necessity.

As for my original post being confusing - I went backwards as I wrote it and edited it so I prolly didn’t make it clear enough. And my story isn’t a very common one, either, so it’s not always easy to explain.

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I hope you can explain it more clearly to admissions.

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It’s a little difficult to chance you because you are certainly not the regular high school senior. It would also be hard to chance you without knowing your SAT or ACT scores. However, I think you definitely have a very interesting profile, and if I were you (although it is late now), I would probably focus on the gap-year experiences, because that is certainly something that differentiates you! Out of curiosity, who did you ask for your recommendations?

Good luck!

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@manwiththeplan 34 ACT. As for the recommendations, my AP Lang and AP Lit teachers. I had them both for class and for activities in which I had a leadership position (Lang - debate, Lit - newspaper). They both knew about my situation and wrote my recs well in advance. Counselor also wrote a rec (ditto for knowing about my situation; I knew her relatively well in HS). For my regular decision apps I am getting my boss from the online magazine I edit to write one (I run the magazine, but he owns it - it’s part of a company that does a lot of film-related stuff).

Absolutely @ the gap year experiences. Pushed that on my apps as best I could. For Harvard, I wrote my supplemental essay as basically a narrative of what I’ve done over the past year and a half, more so they had the information than as something creative or personal. My common app essay was related to my interest in film criticism but was more personal.

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If you want the whole breakdown - 36 Math, 35 English, 34 Reading, 32 Science, 12 Writing. I also got 720 on 2 subject tests (US History & Math), but I’m only including those on my Harvard apps as of now. Do you think including those would help or hurt me? I don’t want to pay hundreds of dollars adding them to every app if it won’t be a big help.

9

GCs are not given out according to “rules” on a random website, you know that, right? It is a very variable process. I can’t even work out when your dads application for the GC would have gone in. Your dad left the US and came back recently? The GC would be a very long way out if it is only just started? So you are an international who has basically left high school the year before last? And you cannot afford full pay? I would be shocked if Umich still classified you as instate after you left for overseas.

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Well, as you’ve asked for opinions: I think your biggest problem is that you are 2 years out of high school and (as I read what you written) have done very little with the time. This past summer you moved from France to Ireland (and based on my experience of moving, you probably didn’t have much to do with the move itself) and did some hiking and fishing. The summer before you and a group of pals worked at making a movie (that is still unfinished). In between you’ve taken some random online and adult classes and intern as editor for an online magazine (in your other thread you say it is about the equivalent of a strong HS EC). Now, maybe there is a lot more to this, but as you have presented it, it smacks of rather privileged dilletantism.

As a smart, educated young adult, with (literally) a world of options at your feet, what have you actually achieved over the last 2 years?

With your stats & ECs I suspect that you were something of a star at your HS and assumed that you had no need of safeties- academic or financial. And clearly you weren’t (and aren’t) ready to give up on famous names. I am amazed that apparently nobody asked the question ‘how much will this cost’ before applying to US colleges- esp your GC (who knew you were not a citizen), who would know that even with in-state tuition there is a lot to pay for. I’m also guessing that you didn’t apply to schools that would have offered you good merit aid because of over-confidence, not stupidity.

So, to money. If a school says that they meet full need, it means that they look at how much money your family has and decide how much they should be willing to spend on your college fees. Your scholarship is the difference between that number and the sticker price. So if the sticker price is $50,000 and your Expected Family Contribution (EFC) is $10,000, then a college that meets full need will give you a $40K scholarship. Depending on the school that can be in a variety of forms, including work-study, grants, etc. Note that most of the time the amount awarded is recalculated each year, so it can vary- and if your families financial situation improves, the amount of aid goes down.

You can get a rough idea of what that number is by running the net price calculator (NPC) (google + the name of the college; the one for Harvard is [here](https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator)). There are things that distort it- real estate, owning a business, etc., but it will give you an idea.

Fwiw, there are colleges that will give you full scholarships, but they won’t tilt your prestige meter. University of Alabama honors college will give you a full scholarship for all 4 years on the strength of your ACT score (if you apply by December 15). If you went there for a year or two you would be in a good position to transfer when the green card comes through. There are others as well (search CC for the threads on full scholarships).

I know: you asked whether you will get into Harvard, after Yale, Columbia, Oxford and Cambridge turned you down. I would guess no, but hey- I’m not on the AdComm. But in my view, you haven’t shown the sort of drive and ambition over the last two years that I would expect to see from somebody who was cut out for Harvard

Last thing: when talking about taking one of your gap years, you say that you

Don’t say this in an application. Ever. You were over 18 and had lots of choices. You might not have liked your choices, but you had them.

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NPCs may not be accurate for internationals. And remember that even schools that meet need are usually not need blind for internationals – so if you need a lot of aid, they are less likely to admit you.

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@Alfonsia I know it’s a crapshoot process. It’s our hope that we’ll get it within a year, but I understand that that isn’t a sure thing. But it’s what’s happened for people my dad knows who have been in the same situation. As for UMich, I also thought that and was shocked when I was told that U of M would give me in-state tuition, but after reading the fine print, I think I’m still covered. They include an exception about being out of the country for a year, and before that year I lived in Michigan for 7 years, am moving back, and we own a house there. U of M is still a long shot, but since I’ve been accepted there 2 years in a row I thought I might as well give it a shot the third time as well.

@collegemom3717 thanks for your reply. That’s what I’m worried about. I feel as if I have used my time well, but I don’t think it looks phenomenal on paper. And you’re right about over-confidence and privilege. Me and everyone around me, including parents, teachers, friends, etc, thought I would be fine and could go to U of M, but once we had realized that wasn’t happening, it was too late. I guess I thought that, since everyone I knew with similar grades and accomplishments was going to U of M, I’d be able to go there, too, and we didn’t realize that my different residency status put us in a different bracket for admissions and financial aid. No one warned us about that.

But it’s not like I’m only going for reach/prestigious schools now, I have a long list of safeties I’m applying to, and if I end up at the local community college, so be it, as long as I’m finally at college. It’s not like I want to be off school right now, as much as I value the opportunity - if I could be at college right now, no matter where it was, I’d be there.

I didn’t know about Alabama and will definitely consider that one now! I’ve been sticking mainly to schools in Michigan because they’re what everyone I know is familiar with. There are a few that have scholarships for international students so I have multiple options if I don’t get into a reach school, which is what the ivies I’m applying to, of course, are. I don’t expect to get into Harvard and know I probably won’t, but I’m applying there just to take the shot, because of the chance of good financial aid opportunities.

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@collegemom3717 As for that NPC calculator, when I put my accurate information in, it gives me well enough scholarship. But of course, that’s for a need-blind school that gives very generous aid.

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Can you tell me what your parents are saying about your plan? You are not British for UK uni rates (I assume this is right because you were absent for all of HS)? Irish Uni rates? They think it is OK you are floating around for 2 years? You are in Ireland now, but you think you are getting a GC within a year, but your dad will have to get another working visa first, to get back in the USA? Again, GC takes, more often than not, years, even with a corporate lawyer. What sort of work does he do?
You are going to be international even for community college at this point, I am surprised your parents aren’t more anxious about this? I mean, international movers and shakers usually aren’t at the mercy of FA. Who is guiding this ship?

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@Alfonsia He works in the auto industry. Getting the next visa is already set up. Once again, getting the green card in a year isn’t for sure, I know, and I’m applying as if I’m going to be an international for the next few years (and I’d have to switch to a student visa at 21 - which by the way isn’t for over 2 years as I’m still 18; I graduated high school when I was 17). However, based on the kind of visa to greencard transition my dad is doing, it’s typically a year or less (based on research and from other people at my dad’s company who have gone through the same process).

I am not British for UK uni rates, nor Irish for Irish uni rates, correct. I want to go to college in America, though, that is already decided. My goal is to eventually become a citizen; America is my home, has been for most of the past 10 years, and I intend to keep it that way by whatever means.

For what it’s worth, my parents have about enough saved to afford the first year (maybe second year at a push?) of a school on in-state tuition, which I am eligible for at most Michigan colleges, based on having graduated from high school here in the last few years and because we own a house there. At a few of the safeties I’m applying to there are merit scholarships that would allow me to afford college for the first couple of years while we wait for the green card. If we don’t get the greencard in time, that’s a different story, but at this point, it’s a risk I’m willing to take. I’d have to wait 3 years to go back to England and be eligible for in-state fees. If everything really does fall apart I’d just move back to England and work instead of going to college, but that’s a worse-case scenario.

As for my parents, honestly I’ve been more worried than them about all this. I’ve been the one doing the research and figuring out how restricted we are. They haven’t taken a very active role in getting me prepared for college. That’s not to say I blame them, though; neither of them went to college or understand the process. But they’re (especially dad) the “everything will be okay in the end” sort of people, which I also am, which isn’t always the best mindset I guess for this sort of thing. And with all the immigration stuff dad’s work hasn’t been very helpful, either. It’s my belief that they could’ve applied for the greencards years ago and we could’ve forgone this mess, but they’ve delayed it.