<p>marite: I know the narrative is ambiguous and unprovable; I wrote it that way. If it's true, the kid isn't guilty of any crime, but it would be awfully hard to convince anyone with that story. Especially if the culprits didn't testify that he disassociated himself from the break-in. And none of them are going to be testifying to anything, unless they testify against him as part of their plea deals.</p>
<p>Perhaps the school was sick and tired of having a subculture of some students blaming the achievement of others for their own misbehavior.</p>
<p>Ugh. I hit the submit button too early and CC won't let me edit. That post (#39) is too full of typos. thanks, JHS, for bearing with me.</p>
<p>Yes, I realized you tried to present a best case for the lookout. But it's hard to swallow. Sure, the lookouts may get off more lightly than the kids who broke into the school and actually carried out the theft; but they are far from having made a "mistake."</p>
<p>Felons or morons, colleges would be well advised to pass up on those kids.</p>
<p>My children have made me aware of all sorts of cheating on in their schools, but this takes the cake. The disturbing thing is that it seems unlikely a cheating scheme this complicated was their first. Heaven only knows what they might have been up to before they became bold enough to try this.</p>
<p>I don't buy the "devil made me do it defense", either, but there is some merit to the idea that we've pushed them harder than any previous generation. Some where in all the push to get them in the best schools and the rush for the perfect high school resumes to get them there (with the resulting lack of a childhood), it seems a lot of kids think this kind of thing is acceptable. </p>
<p>I can't help wondering what they'll be like in 20 or 30 years.</p>
<p>The biggest mistake the burglars made was in forgetting that they attend a public high school. Private high schools tend to favor administrative justice and quiet expulsions. I can't fault a public high school, accountable to the taxpayers, for calling the cops and I think the DA was reasonable in bargaining for class B misdemeanor pleas.</p>
<p>Elite public high schools are still public and still accountable to the public. These burglars burglarized the wrong school.</p>
<p>My kids have also told me about some cheating that goes on.... some is the really ugly kind.... kid doesn't study and then cheats during a test. </p>
<p>There is also a kind of cheating that I do blame a bit on the school (I went to the principal and he agreed with me). that kind of cheating happens when teachers assign too much homework that is due toooo soon - a big problem when on the same day, the kids are in some kind of school sport event - especially "away" games. So kids "work together" and split the work. </p>
<p>The example I gave the principal was where the math teacher assigned over 60 calculus problems for one night!!!! Too many of the probs were similar so I couldn't blame the kids for "splitting" the assignment up so that each kid did an "array" of problems but not too many of the same type. The kids still learned - which is the point of homework, isn't it???</p>
<p>Now, instead of assigning 1 - 120 odd, the teacher has to assign 1 - 120 "every other odd" That way kids are still doing different level problems but not so many that are too similar. AND, the teacher has to give more time for such assignments - not just one day.</p>
<p>I pointed out to the principal that if he didn't fix this homework problem kids were going to continue to either cheat or be "absent" the next day cuz homework wasn't finished. He had to agree that he suspected that many student's absences are "homework related". - especially when he noticed "trends" on certain days (many "good" kids absent on one day) I assured him that many aren't sick - the kids (and their parents) don't want to receive an F in homework just cuz the kids didn't really have enuf time to do the homework. Or the kids are too exhausted to go to school cuz they were up all night finishing homework, so a bunch arrive around 11 am with "sick notes" that they woke up with headaches and were allowed to sleep in a bit.</p>
<p>I blame the parents for that one ^^ :D</p>
<p>Would it not have the same effect if this incident were just put into the student's academic records? "Caught cheating- broke into school and stole answer keys."<br>
Or does it need to be part of a criminal record in order for colleges to look at it?</p>
<p>These burglars burgled. Period.</p>
<p>It's not "just cheating" which, as the principal noted, would have been dealt with internally. It was burglary, plain and simple. </p>
<p>Strick: I blame the parents, too. Not only for putting pressure on their kids all along, but in worrying first and foremost about their college prospects after their kids pulled off this stunt.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Now, instead of assigning 1 - 120 odd, the teacher has to assign 1 - 120 "every other odd"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Usually math textbooks give the answers to odd numbered problems in the back of the book. (There are exceptions to this, but that is the convention.) My son's math classes usually assign even-numbered problems. Some parents buy their children instructor solution manuals for the book, through various channels. I don't worry about that much, because much of the course grade comes from taking proctored tests.</p>
<p>token....</p>
<p>That's right - answers of odd problems are in the back. The teacher assigns odd problems so kids can see if they are doing the equations correctly. .... BUT... the kids still have to "show their work." They can't just put down the answer that's written in the back...</p>
<p>Jeep...</p>
<p>What are you blaming the parents for in my post?? Or were the ^^^ directed at some other post?</p>
<p>I was just imagining a scene in a prison cell. A typical guy who committed armed robbery at a convenience store asks the newbie what he's in for. Can you imagine how fast the convenience store robber would move way far away on the group W bench (from Alice's Restaurant)?</p>
<p>Well, it's not a funny situation at all, because clearly there are some kids whose warped values just wrecked their near-term future. How would I even counsel a kid after such an event? They'd practically have to start all over learning basic morality, never mind the chemistry.</p>
<p>JLauer-- I read jeepmom's ^^marks to refer to parents who write fake-o sick notes, and thereby enable kids to dodge the consequences of undone homework. It also teaches kids to manipulate.</p>
<p>Jlauer - it was in response to your post - last paragraph - when kids are allowed - by parents who write the excuse notes - to sleep in (for lack of a better description) on a test day and arrive at school at 11 - excused. That I would blame on the parents - who would be enabling that behavior.</p>
<p>Thank you Paying3tuitions - you said it alot better than I :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
BUT... the kids still have to "show their work." They can't just put down the answer that's written in the back.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I was hoping that was the rule there. Yes, showing the work can make a problem more challenging, even if the answer is known.</p>
<p>I feel sad for all involved. Yes, we certainly don't want to allow this behavior, but in the teenaged mind this may have even been some sort of lark. </p>
<p>The parents are being foolish to not counsel the kids to take the misdemeanor charge. Perhaps their idea that all should be forgiven to not hurt little JOhnny's chances is really the origin of the problem. So this is a punishment for the parents too, and that's appropriate here.</p>
<p>I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that they're kids. I did some really dumb things when I was one.</p>
<p>A more chilling case to me was in a neighboring high school with a large population of Chinese and Korean students. Unfortunately, the secy's can't tell the kids apart. One Harvard aiming kid claimed to be another to sabotage her application. She was caught by the school, and the school did not inform Harvard but claimed the Guidance Dept. had made a clerical error. He offender went to Harvard; the other girl to Yale. To me, this was far worse because in attempting to eliminate her competition Girl 1 had no compunctions about injuring a classmate. The school is so proud of its stats that it actually enabled the girl's behavior. The only punishment she suffered was that she was not allowed to give the valedictory address or be named valedictorian. </p>
<p>BTW: I am not implying in any way that Asian students are prone to this behavior, just that the European-American secy's well less able to tell these students apart, or less interested in even trying.</p>
<p>Jeep... >>>Jlauer - it was in response to your post - last paragraph - when kids are allowed - by parents who write the excuse notes - to sleep in (for lack of a better description) on a test day and arrive at school at 11 - excused. That I would blame on the parents - who would be enabling that behavior.<<<<</p>
<p>Jeep... my kids do not procrastinate with their homework so when they have to stay up very late finishing an assignment that only had 1 day to do, I have let them sleep in the next day (or I've let them go to bed and then miss the morning so they can finish.) I've done this because if the kid doesn't finish, he loses 50% on the grade. And there's no point in sending him to school half asleep! I wouldn't do this if they had "goofed off" and had waited til the last minute to do an assignment. The problem is that some teachers grossly underestimate how long some of their assignments take to do (and they don't respond to complaints, either). This is further complicated when 2 or more teachers "bomb" the kids with homework and only give one day to do their assignments. </p>
<p>Last week, along with all the other assignments from other teachers, one teacher assigned TWO 5 paragraph essays MLA format with outlines to be turned in after ONE day - strong thesis, strong conclusion, 3 supporting ideas, at least 5 sentences per para, perfect grammar, syntax, etc, expected..... Each essay took at least 2 hours and there were assignments from other teachers, too. It was a nightmare. </p>
<p>Do you really blame the parents??? Or me???</p>
<p>mythmom That story is VERY chilling. The girl who did the sabotaging is now a student at Yale??? :eek: She obviously still received excellent GC and teacher recs. I dont think the admin or teachers at Ds school would have continued to support her.</p>
<p>Our school (private) had a blatant cheating incident at the end of last year (in an AP class) and the offenders who were seniors had their universities notified. Not one of the universities rescinded the acceptance. Two put the kids on probation but the rest suffered no consequences.<br>
Amazing!</p>
<p>momtn..</p>
<p>Maybe the universities were afraid of lawsuits. They wouldn't know for sure whether the private school could "prove" that the kids cheated and the universities probably didn't want to risk that if the acceptances were rescinded.</p>