<p>Those test-prep hothouses are only running an extended commercial operation. And how often does a business corporation put honor before money? :-)</p>
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<p>Indeed that crosses the line. But, the CB can roll out new SAT that no one can reach a perfect score, not even close. If anyone wants to spend his entire waking hours on the prep, go ahead and have fun.</p>
<p>I would be very surprised if big American test preparation do not secure and study all material they can get their hands on, including ‘unreleased’ test copies.</p>
<p>Basically, the Chinese companies have made a deep study of the SAT test questions, and identified patterns that can be used to help, particularly for Chinese native language students.</p>
<p>The students take an intensive 2 month full-time 6 days a week course. That, plus what they know, gets them decent scores. You can’t get a 680 on the language sections without knowing any English. A lot of the sarcasm about the ‘modest levels’ of English of the students is based on oral skills, which are not tested in SAT. </p>
<p>In 30 years, when the best American kids are fighting to get out of their third world poverty into a top Chinese university, maybe they will show the work ethic and determination that the Chinese kids are showing today.</p>
<p>I found this to be interesting, although quite logical:</p>
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<p>“In 30 years, when the best American kids are fighting to get out of their third world poverty into a top Chinese university,…”</p>
<p>Hopefully the U.S. will not be a third world country in thirty years with all the hard working Chinese graduates of U.S. universities over-staying their visas and leading our industries to global leadership through hard work and win at all cost mentality.</p>
<p>Please note that I said “proper” interview. I don’t consider sitting in a room and talking off a prepared form a “proper” interview. You want to draw out the interviewee’s passion, whatever it may be about. That way you can see the person behind the test scores and whether or not they would be good at whatever university you represent. It’s not too difficult to tell when someone is truly answering the questions honestly, when they are BSing, and when they keep trying to avoid the subject. I don’t want to talk to someone who has answers prepared for all of my questions. I want to see them improvise and adapt and show me what their character is like.</p>
<p>Honestly the biggest problem I see is that the mentality that these students bring is not right for the American educational system or society. They’re not going to integrate into the student body, they’re not going to meaningfully contribute their time and effort into making the school better, and they’re not going to represent the school well. Teaching them about the new culture that they live in is one of the most important things that a university can do. For example, at my school, international students have the option of taking a free, uncredited class where the whole point is to help them transition. They talk about slang, sports, and customs. They go to football games together. They go to In-N-Out. They share the problems they’ve been having in their day-to-day lives and talk about where it originates from, why it’s happening, and how to fix it. If universities are going to take more and more international students that they know are going to game the system to get in, they need to offer these kinds of classes so that the students aren’t just sitting in their rooms all day cranking out grades and doing nothing else.</p>
<p>There is something so sad about this - for humanity.
Cheating is wrong.
People know right from wrong. People should do the right thing.
How people can cheat and hold their head up is beyond me.
Cheaters are a disgrace.</p>
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<p>I second this. I have never been against test prep. I prepared for the SAT in high school and the GMAT as an undergraduate with the official review books. But “flipping” is blatant cheating, and shame on New Oriental for encouraging it.</p>
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<p>But ucbalumnus’s reply stands. You can easily find books on [url=<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Acing-Interview-Answer-Questions-That/dp/0814401619/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305479305&sr=8-1]Amazon[/url”>http://www.amazon.com/Acing-Interview-Answer-Questions-That/dp/0814401619/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305479305&sr=8-1]Amazon[/url</a>] that purport to teach you how to interview better. I got that result simply by searching for “interview.”</p>
<p>As for your last point, I’m not so sure. Some people seem to have a knack for BSing and getting away with it. My second-year roommate was the “lead” TA in a computer science course, and he was supposed to show the “(A)pprentice” TA the ropes. From living with him, I knew that the “(A)” TA often told my roommate that he was too busy to do his share of the grading and dumped it on him. My roommate later told me that the “(A)” TA had been promoted to the “head” TA for that course the next semester! Here was a guy who pretty much never did any of the work, and he managed to get himself promoted to the “TA of TAs” position. Thankfully for my roommate, the former-“(A”) TA got an even better position elsewhere and recommended him to fill the vacancy.</p>
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<p>Pfft! What a load of unsubstantiated assertions!</p>
<p>How many international students do you know? I would wager ‘none.’ If you knew any, you’d know that just because they don’t do the same things you do to relax doesn’t mean they “[sit] in their rooms all day cranking out grades and [do] nothing else.”</p>
<p>If anything, I think your post demonstrates that the problem is two-sided. Yes, international students need help adjusting to their new home and learning environment, but domestic students need help accepting that there are more ways than the “American way” to have fun.</p>
<p>I would like to see you all go to China and take an undergraduate degree taught in Chinese after studying the language for a few years, AND maintain a fully engaged social presence on campus.</p>
<p>About flipping - I observed an SAT test administration in Hong Kong (to what I guess was over 90% mainland Chinese students). The invigilation was extremely tough, even harsh, nobody was getting away with anything. They didn’t even allow toilet breaks. You couldn’t flip and relax over an English section when everyone was supposed to be on math, the invigilators prowling around would be on you like piranha on sushi.</p>
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<p>I surely couldn’t do it. My hat is off to all the students who work hard enough to do so. More power to them.</p>
<p>Really, it is extraordinary that the test prep course is getting those kind of results for students who are not fluent in English. I think most American test prep companies would be thrilled. The number of hours of instruction and the homework expectations (100 vocab words daily) are far beyond what typical American students do to prepare.</p>
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<p>Cur, it is a bit more complex than that. ETS is not headed by a bunch of morons who are dumb enough to release a number of tests every year fpr no valid reason. Some of this was created by litigation in New York. In addition, we should remember that the tests are standardized and that the objective is to have a test that remains close to an AVERAGE of 500 in the 200-800 scale and remains close to the historical marks. </p>
<p>In order to accomplish this, ETS has to rely on forecasting the EXPECTED answers of test-takers through experimental sections. Despite having a gigantic vault of questions, ETS does recycle questions in various forms. In a normal world, questions that appeared in experimental sections in the United States on unreleased tests COULD be used in foreign locations. Actually, that expectation could even exist for the released tests because, in theory, they should only be acquired by the student who took the test. </p>
<p>All in all, the current system should reward students who use the LEGITIMATE sources to maximize their scores. It should not reward illegtomate exploitation. What is happening in most of the Asian countries AND in their “foreign” outposts in the Unites States is much different and goes well beyond hard working. It is a blatant exploitation of a system, and one that does have a negative impact on students who believe in honorable conduct. </p>
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<p>Different persons may use different definitions of unreleased tests. It is, however, extremely doubtful that companies such as Kaplan, Princeton, and other US independents would engage in the organized theft of ETS/TCB material, and other shenanigans.</p>
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<p>I go to USC. We have more international students than any other school in the nation. I think I know a few international students. Yes, I know ones who are crazy and strange, and those that are pretty much already American. I know people from every populated continent. But let’s not kid ourselves, we’re talking about these Asian savants that are coming here, blowing through super hard math problems, stealing our jobs, contributing to the downfall of American society, etc.</p>
<p>Of course, my argument defeats itself doesn’t it? After all, nobody would know these people I’m talking about who spend all day in their rooms and never so much as talk to their roommates. Oh, except we had a roommate like that last semester. Anecdotal evidence, I’ll admit, but this isn’t exactly the kind of topic where you can find facts and figures.</p>
<p>Yes, there are differences in cultures, values, and “ways to have fun”. However, allowing these international students to graduate and go out into the American workforce (if that’s where they choose to go) without teaching them about American culture, values, and customs is a gross dereliction of duty by the school. It’s not just about teaching book knowledge, it’s about teaching life skills and how to be a meaningful and productive member of society (and successful, and generous, because then the school gets fat donations which is what it’s all really about). Besides, do you really think some domestic company is going to hire a person who doesn’t know the “American way” of doing things?</p>
<p>Agree with your post. I think there is also complicity of schools knowingly accepting international students with questionable qualifications who are not likely to survive in order to take in more “full pay” students. I doubt the top tier engage in this practice but there are many colleges who cannot fill their seats and the article points out there is a demand for students who make the the numerical cuts irrespective of their ability to survive as long as the tuition is paid in hard US currency. I just hope this isn’t adversely affecting those people who play by the rules.</p>
<p>Clarification: I agree with xiggi’s post. </p>
<p>I don’t think the discussion should degrade to bashing international students because they are different. The point of going to a college with high diversity is to learn that there are differences that will also prove to be true in real life business situations as well as in international relations. </p>
<p>My Concern about these ultra efficient SAT prep courses is that they skew the numbers so much that it doesn’t reflect the student’s preparation for college level work and yes, the system is flawed and I am surprised that ETS isn’t concerned and doing something about it?</p>
<p>Re #55</p>
<p>I never disagreed with you that acculturation was necessary and a good thing; I’m disputing your insinuation that these guys don’t do anything but study.</p>