<p>Exactly so, Soozievt. That’s why there are wait lists in the first place. I’m puzzled that anyone would consider this an ethical quandary - it’s really a financial issue as to whether one is ready to forfeit the deposit in order to take a wait list offer.</p>
<p>Nalajen, if you really believe it is only about the money then I understand why you would not see a ethical quandary. Your standards are different than ours, peace. The cool thing is you get to choose which way to go. </p>
<p>I do believe it is an ethics issue, regardless of the way the system works today, because we still believe in the “old days” when a persons word meant something. Just because the waitlist methodology is in place and that is the way it works does NOT mean it is right. As I try to teach my son some values and morals including ethics it is difficult to teach your word is your bond and then say but when you tell school A you are coming and then back out of that commitment because suddenly school B provided you a slot you have a ethics issue. You may not see it that way but I do and I can find a large group of others who do also. </p>
<p>The school in question that we may need to commit to as we wait for the WL issue to be resolved has been wonderful. We have established a very good relationship with the staff there. It is not his number one choice but we may choose to commit there as school B is working in the system that exists and cannot provide a slot to the first person on the waiting list as others play the WL game as Soozievt described. When my son makes a commitment he is making a commitment to a person, the dean of the dept, not a nameless entity. That commitment should have value. I am sure this school will begin to make plans for the forth coming year with the students they are counting on attending and then only to have someone pull out later to go elsewhere creates lots “challenges” for that person, challenges they may willing to take and live with but they still exist. This time and energy could go elsewhere and be more beneficial to the kids I believe. </p>
<p>Remember ethics, morals, vales are all personal standards. I am working to teach my son to actually have his own and not live by societies in which case others are making up his mind for him He needs to establish his own rules to live by through conscience thought. You might not think committing to to a school and then pulling out and going elsewhere is a ethical issue but we do because we have established personal standards and are not willing to live by conventional wisdom. To each his own.</p>
<p>The great part of living in America is that we have the freedom to make our own decisions and think for ourselves, the sad part of our current situation in this country is few view that freedom as having the responsibility to actually think for oneself. Just because this is the way the WL system works does not mean we believe it is right.</p>
<p>Sooziet, I am not sure where the May 1 date comes from, all the schools we are involved with want answers today, April 15 or they are revoking scholarships and/or BFA slots or at least that is what they are telling us. Yes, we have asked for extensions but this is as far as they say they can go. It also seems that the whole WL system benefits the schools more than the kids. I understand why it exists I am just not sure who it benefits the most or what behavior it really encourages. </p>
<p>The best of luck to all and hopes and prayers that your sons and daughters all end up in school where they can thrive and excel because in the end that is the point of this whole interesting process. They fact that we all take different paths to get there is part of the seasoning in life.</p>
<p>I think that the May 1 National Reply Date is part of membership in NACAC:</p>
<p>[NACAC</a> Homepage](<a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/Pages/default.aspx]NACAC”>http://www.nacacnet.org/Pages/default.aspx)</p>
<p>geektheatre, I think it is wonderful and commendable that you are teaching your children that a person’s word means something. But I also think that higher education is (sorry to be so blunt) a business/contractual situation, and that it is understood by the school at which your son or daughter puts down a deposit that that deposit will be forfeited if the student decides not to matriculate. The deposit basically covers the administrative costs that will be incurred by the school at the time that the student (who made the deposit) decides not to attend, after all, because he or she was taken off the waiting list elsewhere. If this were only all about two parties’ words and promises, a financial deposit would not be necessary. Colleges and universities understand that this is going to happen and they plan for it, which is why offers go out to a certain percentage more students than the school believes will actually enroll.</p>
<p>The minute your son declines a spot, geek, some other student gets the chance of a lifetime. There are plenty of situations where the ethics you speak of apply-- marriage is one that comes to mind! If your son had a part in a show and was offered a better show mid-rehearsal, it would certainly be ethical to turn down second offer. </p>
<p>But accepting your second choice school, when your first has offered you a place-- and paying that second choice many thousands of dollars for four years of an education you feel is second best is…well, ethical is not the word that comes to my mind. I would at least call the college in question and ask if they feel it’s improper for you to decline.</p>
<p>I read Gwen Fairfax’s comment backwards at first…the one about being in a show and getting a better offer. </p>
<p>Actually, in the world of community (unpaid) theatre, it is common for actors to drop out of a show if they are offered a conflicting paid role, even quite late in the rehearsal process.</p>
<p>It inconveniences everyone greatly, but they understand. </p>
<p>It would surely be better if everyone adhered to geektheatre’s ethical standards, but community theatre is one place where it is not considered to be a betrayal to “abandon ship” under certain circumstances.</p>
<p>My D is going on a waitlist and also will accept a place at her current #1 as is expected and necessary.</p>
<p>I think the only downside to doing this is possible sadness about putting emotional investment in the school you accept, and then having to tell it goodbye as you move to another school. Many kids decide when a waitlist opening arises that they no longer want to take it, because they have really connected with that first school. This may yet happen with my D. In some ways her WL school is preferable, but there is nothing really wrong with her current #1 choice.</p>
<p>I do not think that accepting an offer from a school is like signing a contract. It isn’t even like making a commitment. The system has a very well understood and acceptable “out clause,” and withdrawing is not like backing out of an agreement. It is like being ready to take a job, buy a house, take a trip, and expressing intent, but not having done the final paperwork yet (the “closing,” as it were). In May and June, thousands of students are still looking for a spot in a college, and they are ready and waiting to take one that has been given up. </p>
<p>I know for a fact that if my D either withdraws her intention to attend school #1 or declines a spot from the other school’s WL, there will be plenty of kids who are thrilled to take it. </p>
<p>And Gwen and NJMom are right - in many professions, and absolutely in theatre, you have to be ready to juggle these kinds of offers and have to have a thick enough skin to pursue what’s best for you, even if you fear disappointing someone. They are used to it, even prepared for it - and I’d say in this case, absolutely expect it. I’d daresay any of these kids WILL get professional offers that DO come mid-rehearsal of a current show, and that almost all of them will seriously consider leaving, or will actually leave, one show for a better option, more than once in their careers.</p>
<p>BU, for example, a very selective BFA program, will offer spaces to twice the number of kids it intends to have in its program. They know that dozens of kids will not accept the offer. They know that many of those kids have schools they prefer over BU. They know that kids who DO take the spots at BU would have loved to go somewhere else and didn’t get in. If you imagine this at a school that is less selective, has fewer applicants, and is commonly a kid’s 2nd, 3rd or 4th choice, these kinds of trade-offs become even more common and understandable. You can’t see this as some kind of “gentleman’s agreement” where no one is juggling options and trying to get the best outcome possible. This includes the school - which would rather have kids who are fully invested in being there than ones who feel obligated by a handshake.</p>
<p>And having a kid who would is on a waitlist - I’d say hurray to anyone who decides my D’s WL school isn’t the place for them after all and makes it possible for her to attend.</p>
<p>I find this all very interesting yet perplexing. As I’ve mentioned, my daughter has made her decision: RSAMD. She signed a form which states that up until July 1st she is free to cancel her spot and accept another within the CDS (Conference of Drama Schools). After July 15th “no CDS school may make an offer to a candidate who has been offered and accepted a place at another CDS school”. All of the schools within the CDS (22 UK schools) circulate information amongst themselves, and a candidate is allowed to take a spot at another school only if they withdraw the first spot. “It is absolutely essential that you do not accept and hold more than one offer of a place at any one time, but you are free to attend auditions/interviews at other schools and may change your mind as often as you wish up to the closing date given above”.</p>
<p>My older daughter, a music major, faced a real dilemma when she was accepted at a US school with a generous scholarship. She was also given her studio placement (private teacher). She did not receive her acceptance from her top choice Canadian school until the middle of April, and would not have known her studio placement until mid-June (the acceptance deadline for the Canadian school was the end of May). Call me naive, but it did not occur to us to have her accept both spots, and ultimately back out of one just so she could really weigh the options. In fact, when she accepted the financial aid offer from the US school she signed this:
"In accepting this offer of financial assistance from <em>**, I understand there is a mutual commitment on the part of myself and the institution. Therefore, I agree that after May 1 of the calendar year of matriculation, I will not consider any other offer from an institutional member of the National Association of Schools of Music while enrolled at *</em><em>, except with the express written consent of the Dean of the School of Music at *</em><em>. I am currently not receiving aid from any other institution nor have I accepted any offers of financial aid. I understand that this offer will obligate me to:
- enroll at </em> as a music major"</p>
<p>There were other conditions, of course, but as I said… were we naive to think signing a contract was meaningless?</p>
<p>geektheatre,
I could not disagree with you more. I am a person of very high ethical and moral standards. I firmly believe in upholding commitments!!!</p>
<p>The deposit at a college is part of a process whereby the student holds a spot to enroll and replies to the college by the required time, with the FULL knowledge upfront to the college that if the student is offered a spot from a wait list school, that they will forfeit their deposit and that school maintains its own wait list for this very reason! It has a wait list because it knows that, for one thing, they may not yield the number of slots in the class from their original offers or even if they do, someone may have to back out if offered a wait list spot at another school. This is how college admissions works. It is not the same as other commitments in life. It is only a deposit to reply by a date until the wait list process plays out in May and June. NO college will EVER look upon a student who gives up their slot and deposit due to an offer from a wait list. I believe in teaching our children right from wrong, but in this case, accepting an offer from a wait list is NOT wrong. It is how college admissions must work as it is not an exact science for a college to predict their yield in the class when they put out offers and can only estimate how many will actually accept the offers of admissions. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I must admit to surprise with the irony here about ETHICS!!! ALL colleges are supposed to adhere to the National Reply Date of May 1. Please know your student’s RIGHTS. This is set by the National Association of College Admissions Counseling.</p>
<p>
</code></pre>
<p><a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/AboutNACAC/Policies/Documents/SPGP10_10.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nacacnet.org/AboutNACAC/Policies/Documents/SPGP10_10.pdf</a></p>
<p>As an aside, one reason students have until May 1 is that all offers don’t come through until April 1 and this gives them a month to weigh offers of admissions and of aid and to visit schools (some don’t visit until they are accepted).</p>
<p>Here is a quote from “Students’ Rights and Responsibilities in the College Admissions Process”:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/PublicationsResources/Marketplace/Documents/StudentsRtsNEW.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nacacnet.org/PublicationsResources/Marketplace/Documents/StudentsRtsNEW.pdf</a></p>
<p>In terms of ETHICS, the colleges you say are making your son commit by today, April 15, are operating UNETHICALLY!!! It is your son’s right to request in writing that he have until May 1 to accept an offer of admission and not lose his spot until then if he declines and not lose any scholarship offers or financial aid until after May 1. He should be quoting the NACAC policies which the college must adhere by. I am a college counselor. I have had this happen to a few students with just a couple of colleges (most colleges do not act this way) and they have indeed written the school and quoted their rights in the NACAC policies and the school has certainly agreed to allow them to reply by May 1. I don’t know which schools you are referring to but I have had students write Montclair State and Point Park about this matter, as these schools took advantage of students and told them they had to reply sooner than they had to and said they would take their spot and financial aid at an earlier date away from them. As soon as the student wrote them and knew of their rights and asked to extend until May 1, they readily complied! Please have your son do this. Today is not the commitment day for undergraduates. I have a daughter who applied to grad school and today was the commitment day for that. When any school asked her to reply before today, she asked to extend to April 15 which is the agreed upon date for grad schools and readily got that extension. It is very unethical for a college to state that your son’s slot or aid will be given away if he doesn’t reply by today. If you are worried about ethics on your son’s part, I would really question a school that pressures a student who doesn’t know his rights to have to reply/deposit by today. They get away with this unethical practice as some students and families are ill informed as is the case in your situation. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I do not agree. First, a college already accepts more students than they plan to enroll. The go by past patterns of yield rates in past admissions cycles (yield refers to how many actually enroll, not how many were offered acceptance). It is not an exact science and so they may not yield enough students to fill the freshmen class. Thus, they have to maintain a wait list to put out more offers to yield enough students. What else do you suggest? There is no way of predicting the exact number of students who will enroll. They do not wish to over enroll as that would be a problem. So, if too few students enroll, they have to extend more offers. </p>
<p>How do you think the job market works? A company interviews five applicants and they accept one for the job and that person declines and so they go to another person in their small pile of those who they considered qualified for the job. </p>
<p>I hope my post has been informative for you or for any family who reads this post.</p>
<p>I cross posted with oldviola. It is UNETHICAL to double deposit at two schools. This means there are families where the kid can’t decide where to enroll by May 1 and they deposit at two schools. This is WRONG. Schools can share information and if caught this would be a problem. </p>
<p>This is NOT the same as accepting a spot at ONE school by May 1 and then getting off a wait list after May 1 at another school and withdrawing at the first school. I am only referring to schools in the US and the policies in the US.</p>
<p>Whew - I feel better. There have been times when I’ve second-guessed our decision, but now I know we did the only sensible thing. Thanks, soozievt!</p>
<p>Another thing…wait list movement typically doesn’t commence until AFTER May 1 when colleges have all their replies back from admitted students. Your son is not going to get to hear from his wait list school until after May 1 most likely. If he prefers his wait list school and is actually offered a spot after May 1, I can’t imagine not letting him take it because that is when wait list offers come out and they don’t come out before the deposits are due at other schools (which again, is May 1 and not April 15, and I would highly suggest your son contact the school with a copy of his rights which I gave you the quotes and links to). Regardless of having until May 1, he is still unlikely to hear from the wait list schools until AFTER May 1. To deny him the chance to take the offer from a wait list school is really too bad as this is how the college admissions process works. There is nothing unethical about following the rules of the process. What is unethical are the schools you are dealing with who are not following the rules. I would really not be inclined to attend such a school in fact, but would still request the extension in writing with the quotes from the NACAC.</p>
<p>When you follow the rules and policies, you are behaving ethically. When you don’t follow the rules, that is unethical. Double depositing at two schools prior to May 1 is unethical. A school telling you that you must take the offer by April 15 or lose the spot or financial aid is unethical. Accepting an offer from a wait list school in May and losing the deposit at the original school is ethical.</p>
<p>The schools offer waitlists. Are they being unethical by doing so? </p>
<p>I really don’t get why accepting a waitlist spot, and then taking it when it opens, could be unethical?? This is the system. No student is gaming the system by doing this, since the schools offer the waitlist option.</p>
<p>I also don’t see how following the rules and policies and procedures is unethical. It is when one DOES NOT follow them, that it becomes unethical.</p>
<p>Since we’re on the topic of waitlists and what to do in the meantime, I’ll share what was a definitive conversation with my D just a few minutes ago:</p>
<p>Applied to: Auditioned: BU, CMU, Montclair State, Minn/Guthrie, Adelphi, SUNY New Paltz; Non-auditioned: Northwestern, Vassar, Brandeis, Lawrence, Bard, Goucher, URI, Minn</p>
<p>Accepted to: Auditioned: Adelphi (BFA and Honors College), SUNY New Paltz (BA); Non-auditioned: Bard (BA), Goucher (BA), URI (BFA), Minn (BA)</p>
<p>Rejected from: BU, CMU, Minn/Guthrie, Montclair State (all BFAs), Northwestern, Vassar (both BAs)</p>
<p>Waitlisted at: Brandeis, Lawrence (BAs)</p>
<p>Final Decision: Adelphi (BFA and Honors College), with Brandeis waitlist</p>
<p>D has always wanted a BFA and hoped for one of the most selective programs; she also was pretty competitive academically and applied to reach/match/safeties as BA alternatives. She preferred to be where she could have access to an exciting city. </p>
<p>She didn’t get her first choices with her auditions, but she always felt Adelphi was close behind. During two visits there she felt very enthusiastic about their program, the faculty, facilities and students. The Honors College, with their Great Books focus, will provide her a chance to do intensive academics in her liberal arts requirements. She sees this as the best of both worlds, in many ways. She also got a very generous merit/talent scholarship there.</p>
<p>With Brandeis, though, she is excited about the opportunity to do a top-notch BA at a school that’s well-regarded for theatre, so she is submitting her waitlist application. They say that they notify by June at the latest. She may get a happy surprise, but until then she is thrilled with deciding to attend Adelphi.</p>
<p>I would urge those who read this thread to listen to exactly what soozievt has posted. </p>
<p>What worries me is the idea that certain instructors at certain programs might be building up relationships with admittees and then pressuring naive and hopeful students into selecting their school based on the misguided notion that they are beholden to the friendly professor/administrator as if they are, indeed, a personal friend who is asking for help, or that they must adhere to unreasonably short decision deadlines. The national commitment date of May 1 is meant to level the playing field for all colleges in prevent the chance that one might unethically threaten to withhold perks if the student doesn’t commit sooner. And while friendly, most professors are calling and encouraging students to attend their program for the best interests of the school. That’s their job. If that pressure is being exerted, I’d wonder why the program is willing to overlook the student’s own best interests for their own. </p>
<p>Making the decision on where to send one’s student to college must be looked at objectively as well as with our hearts. If it feels like the school is doing a high-pressure sales pitch, beware. </p>
<p>As for the wait-list issue, it is no different than any other part of the college application and admission process. There is nothing unethical about making a good faith deposit and changing one’s mind for whatever reason–you are the buyer and you may withdraw, losing your deposit.</p>
<p>Congrats EmmyBet and D! So glad your daughter is happy.</p>
<p>^^^ Wow wow wow!! Congratulations on this phase of the decision, EmmyBet! What a wonderful program. She gets the BFA! She was selected by audition! (Was this the school that made a special arrangement to audition her when she was in town?) And she gets the honors college!</p>
<p>Win - win - win!!</p>
<p>And then, there’s always the waitlist, too.</p>
<p>madbean, I agree that students or parents who are not savvy or well informed about the college admissions process will believe what a faculty member says about having to commit before the National Reply Date or lose their slot or aid. I had this happen with a student this year at a BFA program and I could not believe what I read. I guided the student in writing a reply, knowing her rights and getting the school to agree to the May 1 deadline. The school replied that of course she could have until May 1 but that they just tell students that they must commit by April 1 (!!!) as a way to ensure the student will “be in touch” with them! I couldn’t believe it. For one thing, the student has no obligation to “be in touch” until May 1. Further, for a student or parent who doesn’t know their rights, they took the email that says that they MUST commit by April 1 at face value and so committed, and never learned that the school simply wanted them to be in touch. The director even stated that most of the students have already committed to attend (this was before April 1). Why, of course, many committed because they were told that they HAD to or else lose their slot! My student will be revisiting and has until May 1 to decide. I recall one BFA program my D was admitted to calling my D before April 1 asking her to commit to her scholarship offer (which, duh, is the same as asking her to commit to attend as they go hand in hand) and we said, “waiting to hear from all schools; we’ll let you know by May 1,” to which they agreed. But some of these schools are preying on those who don’t understand the process or their rights (see NACAC) and will assume they MUST commit sooner than the National Reply Date. It is a shame. I hope my post informs some people. Pass the word. </p>
<p>EmmyBet, I think, while your D did not get into some hoped for schools, she had plenty of nice options and had the option to choose a BFA or a BA and so it really turned pretty well in the end. I think her reasons to go to Adelphi are well reasoned and make sense. Good job! And keep pursuing the wait list at Brandeis, as doing nothing is not good, but at the same time, you have nothing to lose by pursuing it and after she does that, put it out of mind and focus on the school she has in hand and if Brandeis comes through later on, it does. I really like to see kids make well thought out college decisions. It seems your D has done so. I won’t take up time on this thread, but will just generally say that I have a daughter in this year’s grad admissions cycle and the deadline was today and she is on a trip overseas at the moment and she mailed us a very well thought out comparison and list of pros of each of her options and why she has picked the school she picked. Then, she Skyped with us to tell us the final decision. She has now committed and so we’re done! Oh happy day! I know she thought it through thoroughly and I just went with her to some visits in fact. Time to celebrate!</p>
<p>Congrats EmmyB and daughter on the decision!</p>