CMU - Case - PSU Honors - Pitt Honors - W&J ???

Parents Forum
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<p>(Cross posted in the selection forum, but maybe more parent advice here?)</p>

<p>Please help to sort this out! Son is intersted in engineering, music and german, a typical "left brain-right brain" person. He definitely plans to go to graduate school. We can probably scrape up $20K per year for expenses. With regard to both programs and price, would you choose CMU at $37K/year (will need loans) or Case/Pitt Honors/PSU Honors/W&J (small LAC) at around $20K per year. We will appreciate all input, both factual and anecdotal. Thanks!</p>

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<p>What kind of engineering?</p>

<p>We were PSU Honor's College yesterday, and have some experience with CMU, less with PSU Honors or W & J.</p>

<p>Is there no FA in the picture so that the numbers you listed are what your family will pay for each school?</p>

<p>Does your S have a preference for big vs small, urban vs rural? Class size issues?</p>

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<p>reasonabledad,
Those amounts are what we would be responsible for. He got the honors scholarships at Pitt and PSU ($4000 and $2500 respectively with extra money for research or study abroad), $20K from Case, $13K from W&J and a paultry $5K from CMU. </p>

<p>He's leaning toward mechanical or aerospace engineering, with thoughts of later going to law school for IP, or maybe MBA. He wants to continue to pursue his music (he is conservatory level, but doesn't want to major in music) and german studies (currently fluent).</p>

<p>My son is pretty flexible with regard to size and location. He really prefers small class sizes where the teacher knows him and discussion occurs. We visited all of them, and he says he could be happy at any of them. He's just that kind of kid. He had always wanted CMU for its excellence in both engineering and music, but I really don't know if it's worth THAT much extra money. I also worry that CMU's "quirkiness" might actually be the "nerdiness" that many speak of, and my son is definitely not nerdy (even though he's at the top of his class).</p>

<p>The fact that CMU didn't give us any significant aid really threw a monkeywrench into the works, and now we are considering everything again.</p>

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<p>What was the nature of the W+J award? A merit award? or a fin aid award consisting of self/help and grants?</p>

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<p>Merit only.</p>

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<p>CMU has a policy of FA reconsideration for students that have received higher amounts of FA at other institutions. We got some extra $ from $0. The catch is whether the competing school is at the same or nearly the same peer level that CMU believes it ranks. You may have a strong case with Case and lessor strength with PITT, PSU, W&J. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.cmu.edu/planning/peer_institutions.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cmu.edu/planning/peer_institutions.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>When we sent S off to CMU, I thought that this was a strange strategy. But on reflection, this strategy is brilliant in discovering an enthusiastic, dedicated, and cohesive student cohort at minimal cost to the school but maximize aid to worthy students. We also had recently viewed "A Brilliant Mind."</p>

<p>Your post has encouraged me to google:
peer effects, financial aid and selection of students into colleges</p>

<p>which gave me this
<a href="http://www.gsia.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/gsia/workproc/roster/full-time/epple/jae_brookings.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gsia.cmu.edu/afs/andrew/gsia/workproc/roster/full-time/epple/jae_brookings.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There was also an extensive study by Stanford 4-5 years ago on SAT scores, distance from home, on selectivity. Increased college distance from home increased the chances of selection. </p>

<p>CMU is apparently applying John Nash's "equalibrium" economics to college selection and costs.</p>

<p>Good Luck and I would like to know how it turns out. Please post on CMU thread.</p>

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<p>Given that he definitely wants to go to grad school and that he doesn't intend to make a career in music, I would tend to favor Shreyer at PSU. This seems like the well rounded kid that they are after. The money saved can be used for grad school. Given that he doesn't have a clear preference and is the type that can be happy anywhere, I'd follow the money.</p>

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<p>itstoomuch,
You are exactly right about the distance from home thing. I very recently found out that CMU will allow only a maximum of 2% of their admission class to be from Pittsburgh, no matter how good the local applicants are. Probably we are similarly disadvantaged in terms of financial aid. I suspect my son would have gotten more if we lived in North Dakota, even with lesser credentials. Also, if I was more savvy, I would have had him apply to more similar colleges from their "competitive college" list to see what financial aid he could get with the only real goal to ultimately coax more out of CMU. Live and learn, I guess!</p>

<p>We did fill out the appeal form for finaid, as well as the reduced income form. CMU apparently only considers competing awards frin private schools. It will be interesting to see if we get any increase, but I'm not holding my breath.</p>

<p>In the meanwhile, everything is on the table again! (God, I hate this process!) At least I think he'll be happy anywhere he goes.</p>

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<p>Thanks fundingfather, I appreciate your input. I have been of a similar mind since the bad financial aid news from cmu. Schreyer has alot going for it, and I have never spoken to anybody who has a single negative thing to say about it. All report that it is a wonderful experience.</p>

<p>Who knows, maybe it's a "sign". Maybe son would be better off somewhere other than cmu, or at least not worse off!</p>

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<p>So how good is CMU's instrumental instruction?</p>

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<p>CMU has excellent music instruction. It is sort of a conservatory atmosphere within a university setting. Teachers are from the Pittsburgh Symphony. Case has a similar advantage in that you can cross register with the Cleveland Institute of Music, which is just across the street from the dorms. Teachers there are from the Cleveland Symphony. The others have music programs and teachers may play professionally somewhere, but are not currently members of a major orchestra. They are "academic" faculty as opposed to "adjunct" faculty who are earning their living by performance.</p>

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<p>lkf725,</p>

<p>I posted in another thread CMU upped S's financial aid after we faxed them better packages from JHU (a competitor school altho not officially a peer school) and BU. I wouldn't say BU is a competing school but his merit award there was big so we threw that in. Case is similar to CMU but they are known for giving large merit awards so who knows what CMU will make of that. I hope CMU can up the ante for your son. </p>

<p>Nerdiness-- I think you'll find this at any good school esp a tech one. It hasn't been an issue for S, he's a fun-loving kid who has lived in a fraternity since soph year. There are plenty like him.</p>

<p>Right-left brain--again he's similar to yours, a CS major with interests in music, playwriting, philosphy and politics. Maybe this is what quirky refers to.</p>

<p>This is just my opinion but I'd narrow the choice to Penn State honors and CMU. I believe Pitt honors is loosely defined, though I like Pitt overall I think PSU wins here. </p>

<p>When we picked schools probably my #1 consideration was to get him to a place where all (well most) of the kids are like him. At CMU he's surrounded by smart kids who want to do well. Maybe that's the best thing about a school like CMU.</p>

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<p>2331clk,
I'm glad to know your son is happy at cmu. Their blend of tech and arts was their major selling point to us. Our sons do seem alike and it bodes well for mine if we can manage to send him there. I sure hope that they can up the ante too! I've been following postings regarding the amount of debt that is reasonabe, and it seems that many would find undergrad debt upwards of $70,000 as scary as I do!</p>

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<p>lkf725,
nephew is a composition major at CIM - selected it over near full ride at Eastman. He says there are very good instructors, and many ops to play music as well. Case engineering + CIM is a good combination.</p>

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<p>lkf725 ~ Your situation is very interesting to us as we just "discovered" the Schreyer's program a week ago, and visited on Friday/Saturday to get the feel for the program. Our son is junior, and looks for excellence in CS, which is a strong suit at CMU, but also wants small class sizes and excellence in liberal arts courses. So there are some parallels to your case, but it's not exact.</p>

<p>Based on what you've written, I have some thoguhts:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>In you case, I would advise my son to choose between CMU and PSU Honors as these seem to be the best fits with the described goals.</p></li>
<li><p>For aerospace or mechanical engineering, some of CMU's advantage dissipates in my view, unless your son is specifically looking to be invovled in robotics, and willing to forego some of PSU advantages to get that experience.</p></li>
<li><p>I don't know anything about music, except that PSU has made some big physical plant commitments to the music department.</p></li>
<li><p>In your place, if my son had a powerful preference for one or the other, I would support it. If there was no powerful preference, I would try to determine if there is a subconcious or gut reaction preference, and if so, discuss what is causing it.</p></li>
<li><p>If no preferences emerge from discussion, the I would go with PSU Honors for sure, and save the money for grad school. Of course, if CMU ups the FA ante, then you are back at square one!</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>And I NEVER thought we would be at square one this late in the game! Pepcid Complete has become my new best friend!</p>

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<p>:) Poor lk! Your tummy upset is a high class problem isn't it? Spoilt for choice?</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Is your S willing to take on the extra financial burden of CMU? It should be his decision--even if you are able to help him minimize it down the road. If he wants to give it a go--then let him roll the dice.</p></li>
<li><p>It's the left brain part of your description that elevates CMU to the top of the list for me.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Are you out of state for PA? Curious since so many of your choices dovetail so well with PA residents. I've known a lot of kids with the same choices from Pittsburgh. FOr Pennsylvanian, CMU is not likely to budge more than a few hundred, maybe a thousand with mostly loans when you show them the package. Those schools are standard competition for CMU and they just aren't concerned. If you are out of state from an underrepresented area, they may bite. It does not hurt to try especially in light of the fact that they do encourage negotiation. </p>

<p>It is not likely that your son is going to be able to take much in the way of classes at the CFA at CMU. He will be able to take private lessons at any of the schools but would have to make arrangement and pay for them himself. CMU 's CFA is very stingy about letting students outside of this school take classes. They have a very short list of what they make available for outside (meaning non CFA) students. Do check that with the CFA. He would not have any problem combining the German and the engineering if his scheduling works out. There are a number of kids with minors and double majors and even a major and double minors. If CMU's city environment and the type of kids really makes it his number one favorite, but the $$ are just not working out, Case is probably the school most similar to CMU. There is cross registration available with the Cleveland Institute so you may want to get info on availabilty of courses there while at Case. </p>

<p>The other schools are very different from CMU. Though PItt is just next door, the atmosphere is quite different because it is a huge school with a lot of commuters and hardly a campus. There is not much in the way of music offering there. W&J is a small school, and in an outlying area, hardly the environment of Pitt, CMU or Case. I know a lot of kids who love the place, but it is a whole different type of school with a different type of student body. Penn State is your ultra state school, again in the middle of "nowhere" and as different from the city environment as could be. It is a terrific school, one of the best for those into the rah, rah state school atmosphere. The honors college is superb and you will find many kids of the same calibre as those at CMU there. I know a number of kids at Schreyer's who were accepted at CMU but chose not to spend the $$ for CMU.</p>

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<p>Hi jamimom!
Yep, we are in the Pittsburgh area! Son did get accepted to CMU in CFA with his choice of a music major or minor, as well as to CIT, MCS, HSS and the BSA program. I'm sure that he'd be happy with the music instruction there. But you are exactly right...they have a surplus of local students and don't really want them. I hear that they will allow a maximum of 2% of the class to be from Pittsburgh, no matter what (don't know if this is true though). And I'm sure this will work against us in terms of financial aid, too. I see students with lesser credentials who have gotten half tuition scholarships, although there might be other factors in play.</p>

<p>The reason for the widely diverse set of colleges is that when it came time to apply, son didn't have any strong feelings for where he wanted to go (besides $CMU), so he applied to different types of colleges while he did some more thinking. He was also admitted to UVa, but no finaid info yet. He was waitlisted at Cornell, so we're not really considering it at this point. The strange thing is that he feels he could get along at any of these, different as they are.</p>

<p>I think that Case will be his second choice. We liked its location in a cultural center, the engineering is supposed to be good and he is happy with his music studio placement there (Cleveland Symphony member).</p>

<p>Pitt might be his third choice because the honors engineering program looks decent and included money for research and study abroad (really, it seems that all ABET accredited programs are similar). He could continue music studies with his current teacher while playing in local ensembles.</p>

<p>We are curious about the Schreyer experience and seriously considering it. We will visit again this week, so maybe it will rocket into first place! It sounds like a great option for personal attention and small class size, as well as research and study abroad opportunities. Not sure about music studio placement though, and we should find out this week. There does seem to be alot of ensembles to choose from.</p>

<p>We all really liked W&J in a friendly, homey way. But upon reflection, it really doesn't have the things my son is looking for. The engineering is a 3-2 program, he will run out of German courses to take and the music is probably not as intense as he would like.</p>

<p>So I guess we are not entirely back to square one, but need to reevaluate the options once the final financial aid offers are presented.</p>

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<p>Congrats on the wonderful acceptances. What a CMU windfall, and I know he has to be a great student to get into all of those schools. Unfortunately, CMU just does not like to pay for Pittsburghers as it gets all it needs and more without dishing out. Am a bit curious about your state school numbers though--I did not realize that Pitt and Penn STate cost that much for in staters even without scholarship. I would think the full sticker price would be well under $20 for PA residents for those schools which makes them even cheaper than the other alternatives. </p>

<p>If he loves the CMU environement, I think a visit to Case is in order. And to Schreyer with the whole scoop on his music opportunities there. Most kids are quite impressed with the honors program there, but some just don't want to be on that huge campus with hardly a town there, hours from the nearest big city. My son did not like it when we visited last year. If it were like Michigan or Wisconsin with a cute little town neighboring it, it would have been different, but he just did not like being stuck on a campus like that, so he did not even apply to the program that interested him there. UVA is going to be tough for out staters to get money, I am afraid, so don't hold your breath there. And that out of state surcharge makes it nearly as expensive as CMU. Good luck deciding, let us know which one and why he chose as such.</p>