<p>Perhaps to some degree, but then there might be unfilled seats. If it were so easy, then maybe admissions would look more at merit rather than building a class by factors like gender. Then they would not need to write to newspapers and publically apologize to the female applicants, who were very qualified, but denied admission.</p>
<p>I was being facetious, because we all know colleges are not going to give up giving tips to males ( in colleges that have not enough), females ( ditto), african- americans, athletes, legacies....</p>
<p>Would alumns ever permit their school to do away with legacies, with tips to athletes? How about doing away with AA for minorities? Even in states that have voted that down, universities have divised ways to use it anyway .Especially considering first generation students are not as "photogenic".( meaning if you have 50/50 first gen & 4th gen college students in a brochure- can you tell?), they are not going to give them a tip that students who make the campus* look diverse* wouldn't get.</p>
<p>* Not to mention students who are 1st generation college, aren't as likely to graduate as other groups, so that would bring down their rankings*</p>
<p>"Whose bigotry?</p>
<p>America's? Harvard's? Your family's? I'm not clear."</p>
<p>When bigotry exists in a segment of our society, we are all diminished by it. Those of us who tolerate it are no less guilty than those who commit it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Yes, for your information, the present holistic admission process was created originally to exclude Jews. The same mentality is now extended to Asians. </p>
<p>I think it's important to remember this.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really? What are we supposed to remember? The past factual evidence or today's unfounded claims? What is the basis used to compare the past discrimination of Jewish students to today's situation facing asian students. </p>
<p>Here's the first reality: the allegations of discriminations are just that ... allgegations without foundation. Except for the product of the imagination and statistiscal distortions a few misguided zealots, there are no verifiable reports of quotas or other egregious and detrimental actions imposed on asian students. Nada! Zilch! Case in point: how many lawsuits on the issue of discrimination against asian students can you find? For an issue of such reported amplitude, should we not wonder why nobody could find a lawyer interested in a bit of publicity, especially if a case could be styled XYZ vs Harvard or vs Princeton. </p>
<p>Here's the second reality: Past graduates do not see it as a problem ... or do NOT CARE. Money should not be an issue as the Ivy League and other hyper selective schools have cranked thousands of professionals who must be well paid, and SHOULD have an interest in such cause. So, where are the manifestations of discontent? Where are the placards? Where are the marches on Cambridge or New Haven? </p>
<p>Causes need unselfish advocates and a modicum of truth.</p>
<p>emerakity4. your quote:"I am wondering if perhaps applications should be purged of anything that identifies students as
Asian-Black-suburban-rural-poor-wealthy-religous-atheist
or anything that does not directly relate to how well they will do in the classroom."</p>
<p>You must realize why that information is asked right? Years ago, before such information was part of the application, Princeton admitted a black student without being aware of it until the student showed up. He was turned away despite holding an acceptance letter in his hand. Students at Princeton tried to redress the wrong three years ago by succesfully petitioned the university to award an honor degree to the man.</p>
<p>PADad, that was in 1939, and the actions of Princeton were a bit more ambiguous than that .... </p>
<p>
[quote]
Ex-NY Supreme Court Judge, 83, Turned Away By Princeton As Youth Returns As Honorary Grad </p>
<p>After he was turned away from Princeton University 65 years ago because of the color of his skin, Justice Bruce M. Wright was recently embraced as an honorary member of Princeton's graduating class of 2001.</p>
<p>In 1939 Wright, whose father is Black and mother is White, received a full scholarship to the prestigious Princeton University but was rejected when he arrived for registration.</p>
<p>After making face-to-face contact with the then teenager, officials of the university told Wright that they felt he would be more comfortable going to school elsewhere.</p>
<p>Wright, 83, told JET that after he was snubbed by the university his self-esteem was destroyed. "My morale was zero," he said. "I was heartbroken because my family had no money to pay tuition."</p>
<p>Even though Justice Wright never argued the school's bold decision, he did ask why he was not allowed to register. **In a letter dated June 13, 1939, Radcliffe Heermance, the director of admission, wrote that, "Princeton University does not discriminate against any race, color or creed ...</p>
<p>"There are no colored students in the university and a member of your race might feel very much alone. ... My personal experience would enforce my advice to any colored student that he would be happier in an environment of others of his own race." **</p>
<p>Born in Princeton, NJ, and reared in Harlem, NY, Bruce M. Wright went on to graduate from Lincoln University, the first Black university in the country, and New York Law School.</p>
<p>After working for the law firm Porskauer Rose, where he represented such jazz legends as Billie Holiday, Miles Davis, John Coltrane and Max Roach, Wright served as a criminal and civil lawyer from 1970 to 1982. He was later elected as a justice to the New York Supreme Court.</p>
<p>Justice Wright stepped down from the bench six years ago.</p>
<p>During Princeton's class day celebration Theodore Nemeroff, a student government official who proposed Justice Wright for the honor, told his fellow classmates, "This recognition and welcome are long overdue."</p>
<p>Other recipients acknowledged as honorary members of class day were famed comedian Bill Cosby, departing university president Harold T. Shapiro and incoming president Shirley M. Tilghman.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
When bigotry exists in a segment of our society, we are all diminished by it. Those of us who tolerate it are no less guilty than those who commit it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, who is the bigot? Who is tolerating bigotry? Do you believe Harvard is discriminating against Asians? If so, is this just opinion based on your daughter's rejection, or do you have proof? I think the Asian discrimination theory has been floated around so often that many of us have absorbed it without challenging its validity. I did, too, until recently. I'm just not convinced. I'd like to know how you are so sure.</p>
<p>Can we assign the bigot label to your daughter if she reflexively attributes a Harvard rejection to racial bias, rather than looking to her own shortcomings as the reason? Maybe.</p>
<p>America's bigotry: I think that it is a sad part of human nature to be envious of those more successful than you. Many Asian groups, like Jews, are successful beyond their representation in the population & this breeds resentment. Has it been quantified, though? Don't know.</p>
<p>so are you saying AA exists because of that applicant at Princeton?
I hadn't heard that story before as a matter of fact do you have a link?
( thanks xiggi we must have cross posted- that was an interesting article- I wonder if some of the concern the university had, wasn't that he was "black" but that he was "mixed"- even today- some people who are mixed have a pretty hard time- The NYT article I read- gives the impression that he wasn't admitted or he changed his mind)
[quote]
He was an excellent student and applied to Princeton,
but was dissuaded by an admissions official, who wrote him saying that the
school did not discriminate but had "no colored students" and advised him
that "a member of your race might feel very much alone."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Is that why at some universities if you are a underrepresented minority-you might have double or more chance of admittance than if you were not?</p>
<p>We do have antidiscrimination laws now ( unfortunately- there is no federal law against discrimination in housing or employment for gays)</p>
<p>But there is a difference between not * discriminating* and actually * encouraging*, isn't there?</p>
<p>
[quote]
My D goes not to a research University but to Amherst to major in Literature. Did she want to go to Harvard? Yes, but in that she is not different from any bright kids who aspire to be at the best.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>For crying out loud! Amherst is NOT inferior to Harvard; Harvard rejects 90% of all applicants. Among those will be Asians and non-Asians. Are the 90% who are rejected going to cry discrimination? And how do you account for the female Asian students at Harvard?</p>
<p>Xiggi, First, let me say that I respect a lot of your posts here. </p>
<p>Your argument about lawsuits is, however, a bit tangential. The same argument has been used when gender unequal pay was first raised. The fact of the matter is that proving discrimination is not an easy task, and most people would not think of going that route. For those brave enough to do so, their career is oftened ruined. </p>
<p>Let me make clear that I support the hollistic approach. it is paramount that higher education insitutions have a well represented student body across a spectrum of our society. Being a professor myself, I am keenly aware of the benefits of such. My objection is the bigotry expressed by the original poster who puts Asian into a tight stereotype and obviously harbors prejudice as such. </p>
<p>Racial stereotype can be maddening. Here are two hilarious personal stories. I have a a third-generation American colleague who was born in the internment camp during the second world war. We had a visitor here once asking him whether he found it difficult to lecture in English. I once brought a beautiful date to a restaurant. When the waitress showed up after a long wait, she apologized for the place being short-handed and asked my understanding since I also work at a restaurant. My date was apalled. I scored a point when I smiled to the waitress and told her that we don't do lunch on Mondays.</p>
<p>I think we all can come with stories indicating mistaken preconceptions.</p>
<p>For example, my daughter attended an exclusive private school. When an evening event was being planned, and I made mention that my husband who volunteered in the school during the day, would not be able to be there- ( this event was connected to his work at the school), someone asked me where he worked, when I told her, she replied * engineers don't work at night- he should be able to be here*,- I had to point out to her that he wasn't an * engineer*, he worked in the * factory* and in fact he didn't get off work till midnight. ( insert gaping mouth here- I guess that shows how casually Boeing engineers dress however, he certainly has never worn a suit coat and he only wore a tie at our wedding! * and it was rented* :) )</p>
<p>At the same school, it was amusing to watch as people did everything they could not to park next to his 1964 truck ( assuming I suppose that he would run over their 240SL)</p>
<p>When I was in school at a community college, it was also assumed by parents at the school that I was in graduate school ( although I had never implied that), and comments like how the hell did you get/afford, to have a kid here, when you aren't educated/wealthy, although unspoken, were pretty clear at times.
It was a minority who made it obvious that they felt that way- however.</p>
<p>Not everything happens because of appearance- sometimes people are just ignorant</p>
<p>I think it also shows the assumption, which I have also seen on CC, that the more( formal) education you have, your intelligence rises, and less formal education means you have to be dumb as dirt. ( because otherwise you would go to college right? )</p>
<p>Marite, </p>
<p>First of all, let me say I agree with you. My pain is for her feeling the way she did. Let me say it again that I do not find it wrong for colleges to balance out the student body. I only object to what has been expressed by the original post of this thread. </p>
<p>Stickershock: what you said of my D's reaction is part of what I meant by diminshing ourselves. A knee jerk reaction that suspects prejudice is perhaps just as bad as the original prejudice. </p>
<p>emeraldkity4, Xiggi has posted the information. He/she is as usaual thorough and has the fact at his/her fingertip (literally). </p>
<p>Xiggi, Don't you think the reasoning that it was 1939 is inadequate. Are we better now? Think of the horror stories we hear on what some of our Arab-Americans are going through at present.</p>
<p>Padad:</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying. I understand your pain as a parent.<br>
Nonetheless, I am dismayed that your D ascribed her rejection by Harvard to her race. She is obviously a stellar student, otherwise she would not be accepted by Amherst. But Harvard, as do many other colleges, rejects stellar students by the thousands. And it has absolutely nothing to do with race.</p>
<p>Kitty, Judge Wright's story is well known in New York area political circles. Wright earned fame years ago as the object of Mayor Ed Koch's anger. And a lot of esteemed folks were subject to Koch's antics back in the day. Wright was (passed away a few months ago) a great intellect, humanitarian, and found time to write a book or two on justice. It's a fact that Princeton's long-delayed honor corrected a diservice that Wright and other "colored men" of the day endured.</p>
<p>By the way, Princeton had a broadly known reputation in the the first half of the 20th century as "the northern school for southern gentlemen," meaning that white supremacists would be quite comfortable matriculating there. I myself have read antedotal exmaples from that period; published letters from Princeton students/alumni from the south whom praise their alma mater as better than Harvard or Columbia because at Princeton they 'were not compelled to matriculate with Negroes.' Remember, Woodrow Wilson, a southerner and an unapologetic segregationist, was the President of Princeton University.</p>
<p>I wonder how a sociologist would view this. Perhaps most new immigrant groups work harder than average Americans to achieve the "American dream." Perhaps for some of those groups back breaking labor was their ticket. Perhaps for others a back breaking education is their ticket. </p>
<p>I look at many of the incredibly hard working, motivated Jewish kids I went to college with 30 years ago. I know many of them were from relatively new immigrant families - and they were pushed very hard.</p>
<p>But, immigrant groups have a way of assimilating. Many of those Jewish kids I went to school with have raised their kids, ah, quite differently than they were raised. And I predict that, for better or worse, this generation of Asian kids will allow their kids more latitude too.</p>
<p>"And it has absolutely nothing to do with race."</p>
<p>I think very, very few colleges reject students based on their race/ethnicity (though whether they have "ceilings" for certain groups is unknown.) But, as I have pointed out previously, to end up with a smaller number of folks from a specific group than it would seem otherwise likely, is not difficult. If a particular ethnicity has fewer legacies, "developmental admits", recruited athletes or participants in desirable sports, contacts with important GCs, are less likely to be the sons and daughters of senators, congressmen, ambassadors, or "important people", are less likely to be Pell Grant recipients or, conversely, are less likely to be to pay full-freight, and are obviously not recruited as desired URMs, the results will be the same "as if" there was a racial/ethnic quota.</p>
<p>I don't understand why everyone is verbally running around like a trail of ants someone stuck a foot into. I don't think it's necessary to go past the title of the thread to see what the problem is. Could we post the same thread title if we substitute African-American? I don't mean would the thread be true I just mean would we all tolerate such a racially tinged title?</p>
<p>The way in which people feel it is acceptable to discuss "Asians' in America makes me vomit. Yes, vomit.</p>
<p>Asian UG population at Harvard: 21.7%
At Amherst: 13%.</p>
<p>Is 21.7% evidence of bigotry? Maybe it's "evidence" of any particular ethnic group (& more often economic & geographical groups) being capped informally, so as to ensure a very wide diversity on a very widely appealing institution of higher learning? And btw, when they are "capped" they are done so in response to a particular flood of applicants from particular areas, ethnicities, etc. It's a reaction (to a specific season of applications) intended to preserve some sense of balance. However, if ONLY Asians were adequately qualified for Harvard, I guarantee you that Asians would be a huge majority at H. The point is, they are not the only qualified or mega-qualified applicants.</p>
<p>"Too many Asians"- one could say "too many European-Americans". The dominant culture thinks it should be the majority- the demographics are changing, maybe in the future the US will fit the world distribution of ethnic groups. It's a matter of who was able to immigrate (quotas) and who has the most children. As a member of the dominant culture I was not rich enough to afford an elite education nor being female could I go to many of the elite colleges and I married an Asian Indian- therefore my son isn't first generation, not a legacy, and he's in the wrong ethnic group. And we have the hard work, aim for the top ethic. And yes, son is into tough sciences-like his parents. Look at the majority of the well educated Asians who come to this country and you will find the sciences dominate so it is not surprising their offspring, by virtue of genetics and/or example, favor the fields they do.</p>
<p>I think elite colleges should look at the group of kids whose parents went to public colleges, this is a group that is being bypassed. I know I would have had trouble with the economic differences if I had been at an elite U, I've read about problems of current students on CC. Instead of taking giant leaps smaller steps may lead to more success, but then, their children will be overlooked...</p>
<p>Another issue bothers me. Suggesting elite students who don't get into elite colleges settle for community colleges. Are these colleges as tough academically, will these students find academic peers, will they be as well prepared when they transfer...? Is it true that California has transfer rules that won't allow some students into their top colleges because they went to certain other CA schools?</p>
<p>I don't expect good answers to these. Maybe we should treat the elite colleges as less desirable than we do. After all, there is life outside of them. BTW, got a phone call, lost my train of thought, want to post these thoughts even if I didn't finish my "sermon". Want to bring up points to get people to think outside their boxes, comfort zones...</p>
<p>Alumither: I totally agree with you about the post name. However, I don't think Americans should completely ignore race or ethnicity, or feel like those discussions have to hushed. That doesn't seem to work either.</p>