<p>
[quote]
Your argument about lawsuits is, however, a bit tangential. The same argument has been used when gender unequal pay was first raised. The fact of the matter is that proving discrimination is not an easy task, and most people would not think of going that route. For those brave enough to do so, their career is oftened ruined.
[/quote]
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<p>Padad, one of the problems with this issue --in addition of coming back repeatedly on CC-- is that is SOLELY based on anecdotal evidence. I do not consider the absence of lawsuits to be ... tangential at all, but absolutely crucial to the essence of the "problem." Proving discrimination is indeed a hard task, and an impossible one when there is hardly any SUPPORTING evidence. The evidence we have is quite different from discrimination: it reeks of entitlement and ill-founded claims of meritocracy --if not superiority. It is undeniable that only a fraction of the well-qualified students are accepted. Single digit admission rates do indeed leave many candidates in the dust. However, are the admission policies in schools such at IIT or other ultra-competitive schools in Asia better? And, where were the critics when the AA policies worked wonders for the asian students? </p>
<p>Further, filing claims of discrimination against schools that receive federal funds is a straightforward process. The ED has the obligation to investigate every one and each claim. </p>
<p>Simply stated, it is easier to make a case at a koffee-klash than in a court of law. The latter does not accept fabrications and fantasies as easily.</p>
<p>D attends a pretty diverse school- has lots of Asian friends- some first gen ( american not college), most from mixed backgrounds and here for several generations</p>
<p>From my experience, I could support the cliche that Asian parents are very interested in their children, especially in their education.</p>
<p>Yes some are a little narrow minded in their focus on big well known schools like Harvard over smaller, not quite as well known outside US schools like Amherst.</p>
<p>Personally I think it is great that Asian parents care so much, I wish that we could bottle it.</p>
<p>I see some segments of the population who could even be described as the opposite- they don't come to their students IEP meetings, they don't come to parent meetings even when child care/rides and pizza is provided and they don't know how their child is doing re graduation requirements let alone how they are doing in school.</p>
<p>But it is OK, apparently to lambaste parents who are involved, especially when it is decided they are "too" involved, with their childrens education.</p>
<p>So are we also allowed to discuss why other parents * arent involved?*
Why they don't come to meetings, why they don't make sure their kids are in school, why they discourage their kids from registering for challenging classes?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Xiggi, Don't you think the reasoning that it was 1939 is inadequate. Are we better now? Think of the horror stories we hear on what some of our Arab-Americans are going through at present.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Padad, I did not post the details of the student who was rejected because of his race in an attempt to justify, excuse, or approve. We cannot rewrite the history, starting with the events that caused the riots of the 1960s. I am all in favor of drawing parallels when appropriate. </p>
<p>There is a never an excuse for discrimination.</p>
<p>I agree with xiggi
I had never heard that story before- "not being part of the New York academic circle"
and I appreciate hearing about it.
I have heard older black gentleman tell me stories about their days in college, that despite growing up in Missisippi, the universities practically paying their way to go someplace else ( where they did very well), but I was not familiar with the background of Princeton, or really any of the Ivies, except what I have read about, when researching something else.</p>
<p>I admit that I was about as uninformed as some recent immigrants regarding colleges.</p>
<p>15 years ago, i didn't know that "Cornell and Brown" were " Ivies",( even though I had a boss who went to Brown- I didn't know I was supposed to be impressed ;) ) that Swarthmore and Uchicago were equally prestigous schools, or had even heard of the Claremont Colleges.</p>
<p>But then I got it back when I was asked where my D was attending- * Reed*? Isnt that a Commie/druggie/hippie school?</p>
<p>Who defines society? Who defines high value? Asians are not part of socitey beacuse 1. they value education 2. they pay taxes. By your logic after a quota limit meets, asians should be barred no matter whatever theey bring in qualification. Your logic is flawed my friend. This world has always valued people who perform despite great odds and that includes people inclue Abe linclon who fought for individual right. Some how scoiety wants to elimeniate individsual rights by imposing society rights. </p>
<p>Yoy think I am part of scitey as long as I do not oppose you for telling me whay you are wrong.</p>
<p>Do you remmeber that Martin Luther King line " I have a dream all perople are equal, people should not be juded by their color but by theri deeds" That is what asian kids are doing but society faults them to do what they like.</p>
<p>Xiggi is right. The Office for Civil Rights/ED complaint process is very simple and straight forward. It requires a written, signed, timely filed (within 180 days of the alleged discrimination) statement that must include an allegation, which if true, would represent a violation of a law that OCR had jusrisdiction over.</p>
<p>Having said that, OCR doesn't get all that many complaints out of colleges. Few of those involve race or national origin issues. As with the elementary and secondary schools, the majority of the complaints deal with disability.</p>
<p>I did a Freedom of Information Act request last year for complaints involving Asian students at the pse level. There were very few, and in none of them did OCR find discrimination.</p>
<p>Xiggi, Your original statement was "that was in 1939, and the actions of Princeton were a bit more ambiguous than that .... ". Smacks a bit like Christopher Marlowe's character in the Jew of Malta saying "that was in another country. And besides, the wrench is dead". (Not showing off but just to dispel the notion that we immigrant science nerds don't know a bit about literature as well). Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I really can't see that as other than an excuse. Having said that, I must admit the nuance of English is not my forte; it is, after all, the fifth language that I have to acquire and rather late in my life at that.</p>
<p>I don't think discussions of race and ethnicity should or even can be avoided in America. I just can't believe though that we make blanket statements about Asians, not even separating China from India, or India from Indonesia. It's mini's point, only I do not have my tongue anywhere near my cheek. How would you feel if people were always posting threads about Jewish parents, or WASP parents, or Latino parents? It may be or not be that Asians are "capped" because so many of the Indian and Chinese immigrants do well in school. That is a separate and more granular argument I am willing to engage in, or at least listen to since I really don't have any inside knowledge. But the blanket statements about "Asian parents" are really not worthy of our country at its finest and at the very least we should all make qualifying statements like, "In my uneducated and limited experience, here is an anecdote about one set of Asian parents I know." Or, "In this biased journal I like to read..."</p>
<p>That's what me vomit. What I perceive as permission we give ourselves to be racists in these threads. It isn't right.</p>
<p>of course they did not find discrimination. You don't need a formal policy that says "we limit the number of asians" in order to limit the number of asians. You think the leadership is stupid?</p>
<p>Discrimination against any group is so easy to implement. No one says "we don't hire blacks." Instead, they say "that candidate just doesn't have the right background or credentials" all said in a very subjective fashion. (Oh yea, you think this does not happen? Recent academic research sent out identical resumes, one batch having african american sounding first names, the other batch having white sounding first names. They tracked requests for interviews, and found a significant difference. You can guess what it was....) So, in the case of applicants, how hard do you think it would be to pick out the asian sounding names? And, since adcoms tell us all the time that their decisions are made within a broader context (they expect more from kids of parents with advanced degrees, for example), I would not be at all surprised that they incorporate the common prejudices about asians in their decision making. After all, adcoms are human, too!</p>
<p>To me, the sadder issue is the lack of perception of fairness. It is a lesson I learned years ago (in the army, of all places) that for leadership to be fair, it must be perceived to be fair. If large numbers of asians believe the system is not fair, then we have a problem.</p>
<p>It's amazing how people have overlooked the intent of the original article:</p>
<p>Too many Asian families push their children to apply to the most elite schools in the country. There are over 3000 universities in this country, folks. Yet, the parents insist that their children only apply to Ivies, UCs, Public Ivies, Amhersts, Ivy-calibers, and maybe the NYUs and Boston Universities. When you receive so many applications from one particular ethnic or regional group, you have to make difficult choices such as limiting the number that can be granted admission. Schools are looking for diversity.</p>
<p>I find it ridiculous that one parent here finds their daughter going to Amherst instead of Harvard very disappointing. Amherst College is among the most elite liberal arts colleges in the country. I have friends going to their local universities (for example, Michigan State is not a prestigious school, but it is not a bad university either for goodness sake) and do not suffer any psychological damages. When certain groups apply to a few select schools, university admissions officers have the right to cap numbers especially when they are also serving their mission's goals: helping underrepresented groups and other students of unique talents and backgrounds enroll in college.</p>
<p>Alumother:
I understand your point completely. I too am pretty skeptical of the generalizations on this forum and many others (eg. the travel forum - "What do they wear in Italy?"). But how then do we talk about any ethnic issues? How do we talk about African Americans - they clearly do not all come from the same geographic or cultural place. How do we talk about Whites? How in heaven's name do we talk about Hispanics? These groups are certainly not homogenous, but they have something in common, don't they? (Sorry for the thread digression.)</p>
<p>Those darn high-achieving Asians! What's up with them wanting to attend top schools?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many Asian students and their families have for years believed that quotas or bias hinder their chances at top Ivy or California universities
[/quote]
I hope applicants of all races figure out that the state universities in California don't use race as a criteria for admission. There are no quotas or racial bias. This is one reason why there are so many Asians at the top California state universities.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find it ridiculous that one parent here finds their daughter going to Amherst instead of Harvard very disappointing. Amherst College is among the most elite liberal arts colleges in the country. I have friends going to their local universities (for example, Michigan State is not a prestigious school, but it is not a bad university either for goodness sake) and do not suffer any psychological damages.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Most of the kids at Michigan State do not have the kind of academic credentials that would have made them viable candidates for Harvard. The kids at Amherst do have such credentials. I don't think it's strange that a student at Amherst who would have preferred Harvard might wonder why she ended up at her second choice school instead of her first choice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Too many Asian families push their children to apply to the most elite schools in the country.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If the kids are qualified, why not encourage them to apply? Nobody is saying that Asian parents are encouraging their unqualified kids to apply to top schools. The kids we're talking about here have top grades, top standardized test scores, and significant extracurricular achievements. Why should Asian students with such backgrounds restrain themselves from applying to top schools? Equally qualified kids of other ethnicities don't feel obligated to do so.</p>
<p>You are so right about labeling as ian parent as inhumane. People forget that lot of parents do not give their kids time and want others to tender to their kids name. </p>
<p>If I call here parents whose kids got into lot of school based on URM then I will be labelled as racist beacuse I happen to be an asian who is education monger. but people who do not do their parental duty are labelled as illinformed.</p>
<p>"Too many Asian families push their children to apply to the most elite schools in the country."</p>
<p>Please define "too many". Is it because their SATs are too high? or their GPAs?</p>
<p>And are we talking about the Malaysians here, or the Kazahks?</p>
<p>"Harvard, Amherst
Asian UG population at Harvard: 21.7%
At Amherst: 13%.</p>
<p>Is 21.7% evidence of bigotry? Maybe it's "evidence" of any particular ethnic group (& more often economic & geographical groups) being capped informally, so as to ensure a very wide diversity on a very widely appealing institution of higher learning?"</p>
<p>Probably mostly evidence of 34% of Amherst students being involved in varsity sports; a much lower percentage at Harvard.</p>
<p>...But by the late 1980s, admissions policies at the University of California again came under fire, this time for allegedly discriminating against Asians. In November of 1988, the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights announced it was investigating admissions procedures at UC Berkeley and UCLA after receiving complaints that the schools were capping admissions of Asian students.</p>
<p>The complaints centered on statistics that showed a sharp drop in the percentage of Asian applicants throughout the decade, even though a higher percentage of these applicants met UC's admissions standards than those from other racial groups. Critics blamed the drop on the school's subjective admissions policies, which they said placed too much weight on extracurricular activities. The government also announced plans to investigate similar claims at Harvard.</p>
<p>In April of 1989, UC Berkeley Chancellor Ira Michael Heyman publicly apologized for the drop in Asian admissions at the school. Though he denied that policies had been put in place to deliberately restrict Asians, he vowed to make changes to correct the error. In May, the University announced changes to admissions standards that placed more emphasis on academic achievement, and agreed to make its admissions process public for the first time.</p>
<p>In October of 1990, the U.S. Department of Education announced the first findings of its investigation. The report cleared 75 graduate departments at UCLA of wrongdoing, but said that the graduate mathematics department discriminated against Asian students in 1987 and 1988. The findings were based largely on statistical evidence, and UCLA criticized the investigation for failing to take into account the weight it placed on personal recommendations and the prestige of an applicant's undergraduate school.</p>
<p>At the same time the government announced these findings, alleged discrimination against Asians looked to be a thing of the past, at least in the Berkeley undergraduate program. In the fall of 1990, Asian students outnumbered whites in the incoming freshman class for the first time in the school's history. But federal investigators looking into the Asian admissions charges began to turn up evidence of other infractions.
...</p>