college course or honors physics??--offbeat student

Parents Forum
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<p>I have a question about my son, who applies to college in the fall. He has followed a very unconventional path that the local public school district in our mid-sized city has supported: Aside from dramatics, which he participates in for credit at the public school, all of his courses are either independent study (with advisors provided by the district) or at the local college, which happens to be a few blocks from where we live. His academic record is so unconventional that he has no class rank and the names of his courses do not correspond to the names given at the high school. He will, for instance, have a year of real college credit from the State U by the time he graduates but not a single AP. </p>

<p>He has, so far, taken three lab sciences: biology, chemistry, and earth science. Next year he can either go to the local high school to take honors physics or take an additional class each semester at the college in other subjects of far greater interest to him and more in line with his intended major, ie, literature, film, poly sci.</p>

<p>Do you really think it is so crucial for a student like this to have taken physics for an excellent college admission --or will he be better off taking the college classes. Let me add that physics at the local high school will be more of a struggle and far less pleasant for this young man than a college course</p>

<p>He is insisting that he NEEDS physics to get into college; I've been telling him he would be better off taking the college courses because 1)he will like them better and 2) it will actually be more impressive.</p>

<p>Am I right, or is he?</p>

<p>Thanks,</p>

<p>momofdzt</p>

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<p>Since he has 3 lab sciences, he should be okay. If he wants to take Physics, let him unless he and you fear he will struggle in it. He will have plenty of time in college to take lit/drama courses.
I am a bit more concerned about the transcript he will have. Colleges do prefer students to take AP courses than college courses because they can evaluate the AP courses (both in terms of curriculum and grades) than college courses which vary enormously in quality and coverage. Make sure your son has kept a copy of the syllabi and catalog descriptions of all the college courses he has taken.</p>

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<p>thanks, but it is what it is --this is the way he was willing and able to get through high school; he is an off-beat candidate who has gone his own way. His college credits are not from some flakey online place but the University of Connecticut and NYU. Some have been associated with prestigious acceptances to competitive precollege programs. His advisors at the high school have worked with him on unusual curriculum, but in almost all cases more advanced than the regular classes. </p>

<p>Re: physics, he does not want to take it because he will enjoy it, but because he feels it will be important to his college acceptance: this is what I am questioning. I do not think he will struggle intellectually but just ...what is the difference now --just do what you will enjoy more. He is already so off the beaten path, can honors physics in senior year make a difference in the positive column? Maybe it can.</p>

<p>As to his place amongst his peers, I think his teacher recommendations and board scores will speak to that. It is too late to change now --it is just onward. This is an out-of-the-box college candidate and he cannot go back in the box now.</p>

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<p>I also have a daughter who has taken a somewhat unorthodox path through high school, quite sure that she <em>needs</em> physics but unable to schedule it at her high school. The only course she can find is an online, college-credit conceptual physics class which is probably great for her but may not be accepted by colleges as a lab science in any case. My gut level sense is to let her follow that inclination - at least it will demonstrate to prospective colleges that she has the motivation and initiative to attempt to fill that gap, even in an unorthodox way. </p>

<p>So your post leaves me pulled in two direction: the fact that your son "insists he NEEDS physics" leaves me thinking: let him continue to chart his own course. Whatever the outcome, the colleges are going to respect the fact that he is trying to round out his high school education, rather than merely pursuing his own interests.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I think that his path through high school is so unorthodox that it probably doesn't matter what he takes at this point: he is going to be welcome at colleges that value the independent and unusual, and going to have a tough time getting into colleges with a more traditional bent, no matter what he does. </p>

<p>Have you talked to your son about why he feels he needs physics? He may have a specific college in mind -- I know for example that when I started looking past the admission stats into what each college required students to have taken in high school, that I found some colleges have very stringent requirements. </p>

<p>I do know that most colleges are far more interested in seeing applicants get the basic high school college prep core subjects, including math & physics, than seeing applicants pursue college level study in their areas of interest. So in general, the kid who has the basic complement of 4 years math, 3 lab sciences, 4 years English, 4 years foreign language, etc. is presenting a stronger application package than the kid whose studies are heavily tilted in favor of an area of strong interest. Ad coms think that college courses such as philosophy, anthropology, etc. are things best reserved for college - they aren't that impressed seeing it on high school transcripts. </p>

<p>But again, it kind of depends on the college. Where is your son thinking of applying?</p>

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<p>he is interested in literature and writing and his college list goes from most competitive to safety but with focus on schools strong in this area. </p>

<p>He already has 3 years of high school lab science, just not physics.
He has completed all the basic high school subjects, many with honors --just not AP, having done college instead.</p>

<p>I am seeing from these responses that he could well be correct... and that honors physics could be more helpful to him from a pure admissions standpoint than something like anthropology or sociology in college.</p>

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<p>"earth science" does not count as a lab science here in California - I have no idea how it is viewed elsewhere, but if it IS a lab science, then it might be important to make sure that it is noted clearly on the transcript - otherwise ad coms are likely to assume that it is not. In any case, bio/chem/physics are sort of a holy trinity for college admissions - when they say they want 3 lab sciences, that is generally what they mean. </p>

<p>If you want to share some of the specific colleges your son is interested in on the competitive end of things, we might be able to give more insight. For example - my daughter was interested in Boston U. but dropped it from her list after we found they have very stringent requirements for high school records of applicants - what is merely "recommended" at other schools on her list is "required" there. My daugher interrupted her high school studies for a semester-long foreign exchange in junior year - so she is very strong on foreign language, weak on math & science. </p>

<p>Since all colleges are different, we could give more insight for specific colleges .... but then again, maybe your son has already done that research. Or perhaps his g.c. has given him the advice about physics?</p>

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<p>Well, two answers: he signs up for physics at the college for second semester, so he can say he plans to take it and the grade won't matter to his acceptance, OR he takes it at the high school, which frankly I don't think will make that much (any?) difference in his acceptances. </p>

<p>My take is: why stop now? Why not just go on taking what he wants, when he wants? He's not applying to MIT or CalTech, right? They're the only schools I can think of that REQUIRE physics (and even they make exceptions).</p>

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<p>okay herewith his courses, credits, and college list --ranging the gamut from high to low for creative and screenwriting majors. His unweighted index is probably between 3.8 and 3.9, from the high school. If you weight the honors classes it is over 4.0 --but no APs. Earth science is a lab science here --it has a weekly lab and he took the nys regents for it too.</p>

<p>By graduation he will have the following, assuming he is taking honors physics, which it seems certain he will after I communicated the response from this list: </p>

<p>English: 4 years high school english (3 honors) plus 6 credits NYU and 9 credits from Uconn (including English and film) in addition to other, non-college-credit programs at Sarah Lawrence college and the writer's studio at U of Iowa.
Social Studies: 3 years high school (US, civics, world history, geography) and 3 credits uconn in poly sci.
Lab Science: Biology, Chemistry, Earth Science, honors Physics
Math: Honors Algebra I, Honors Geometry, Honors Algebra II, Honors Precalc
Language: Spanish I, II, III, and IV (III and IV are being done with an advisor as independent study in literary translation)
Electives, one in business law and 3 years of drama, including 2 years in a special performing arts program that takes half the day at the high school, where he acts, directs, and writes. Plus of course health, gym, human behavior. </p>

<p>He is the winner of a number of awards, including the best poem for his school in sophomore year and the best story in a citywide competition in junior year and part of an award-winning ensemble that was a winner in the New England Drama Competition. He has had a play he wrote performed at the high school and has performed for public audiences in the performing arts center in this city as part of his acting ensemble on many occasions. other stuff too small to mention, a few hours of volunteer work, etc. He has an excellent portfolio of fiction, poems, screenplays, and plays --also standup, which he has performed.</p>

<p>He should have some pretty excellent recommendations, including from some top profs at NYU. Still waiting on scores from ACT --my expectation is they will be at least 30 and probably 32-3 based on practice tests, but you never know.</p>

<p>Here is the (alphabetical) list I have put together:
* Bard<br>
* Brown<br>
* Carnegie Mellon<br>
* Dartmouth<br>
* Emerson<br>
* Hampshire<br>
* Middlebury<br>
* New York U (Tisch)
* Sarah Lawrence<br>
* SUNY Purchase (dramatic writing)
* Susquehanna (creative writing)
* U Connecticut
* U Southern Calif (screenwriting)
* Vassar<br>
* Wesleyan</p>

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<p>and btw, he has As in all the college courses, but the high school is putting those on the transcript and counting each A as straight 4.0 (vs. 5.0 for an AP and 4.5 for honors) so after weighting the college courses literally bring down his gpa, but who cares. He is not in the running for any class rank at all --he is just too off the routine path.</p>

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<p>My S graduated early with 9 college courses. The school does not weight grades anyway, but because he was graduating early, he was not ranked and not in the running for val or sal.<br>
I want to repeat that it is important for him to have catalog entries for each of the college courses he has taken. We attached them to my S's applications; otherwise, Math 101 would mean nothing to adcoms (it's not an introductory course).
The list of colleges looks good and seems like good matches for your S. The president of Bard is on record as saying that students should be able to start college earlier, and he is very strong on the arts (a conductor himself). SoozieVT's D will be going to Tisch. She may be able to give you some insights into the school.</p>

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<p>I am not sure that you can't call - or have him call - the Admissions Offices of a couple or several of the colleges on his wish list and present this question. For my grandS, who was uncoventional in a different way - ie, underprepared - we were advised to do this, and found Admissions Office at the school we contacted to be very helpful, truly earning the title of Admissions Counselor.</p>

<p>Others might comment on whether there is a downside to this. But why not have him either make the call or interview at one or two schools and ask advice of the AdCom on this particular choice for his Senior year.</p>

<p>As an aside, Earth Sciences is considered a lab science at our hs, so it does differ from place to place.</p>

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<p>He can definitely do both. Let him take the courses he wants at the college, and sign him up for an online physics program. Check out <a href="http://epgy.stanford.edu%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://epgy.stanford.edu&lt;/a>. If he is self-motivated and has good self-discipline, an online class should work fine. They also offer AP classes.</p>

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<p>If you are looking at online courses, the UC Berkeley extension offers a Physics course for college credit which is somewhat less expensive than the full sequence for the EPGY course - though the EPGY course does seem more tailored to the AP exam. That's the course my daughter will be taking.</p>