<p>
[quote]
If your child is one of the rare breed who knows what he wants to do and isn't unduly attracted to academics or to the Animal House environment that characterizes many college-living arrangements, then take solace in the fact that countless other people have successfully taken the noncollege road less traveled.
Some examples: Maya Angelou, David Ben-Gurion, Richard Branson, Coco Chanel, Walter Cronkite, Michael Dell, Walt Disney, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Bill Gates, Alex Haley, Ernest Hemingway, Wolfgang Puck, John D. Rockefeller Sr., Ted Turner, Frank Lloyd Wright, and nine U.S. presidents, from Washington to Truman.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This information is wrong. These people actually DID attend college, although they did not graduate:</p>
<p>Ben-Gurion - Istanbul U.
Cronkite- UTexas
Dell - UTexas
Gates - Harvard
Turner - Brown
Wright - UWisconsin</p>
<p>Also, many of the successful "honorably discharged" college students who become billionaires such as Gates conceived their Mona Lisa in college. The fact is you can't count on founding the next Google. So even for these people, college was the best option since you can fall back on your degree.</p>
<p>I have posted this before, but my particular point of view for those who have the necessary skills to attend Universities typically discussed in this forum is well expressed in this: The</a> University of Chicago Magazine: October 2003</p>
<p>There are so many misleading statements in that article, that I wonder who the author is shilling for:
[quote]
Among high-school students who graduated in the bottom 40 percent of their classes, and whose first institutions were four-year colleges, two-thirds had not earned diplomas 8½ years later.
[/quote]
So 1/3 did graduate! Not bad for the kids "at the bottom" Of those that did not, how many left after a short time? How many did not find the experience helpful? How many finished later in life? We don't know.
[quote]
Research suggests that more than 40 percent of freshmen at four-year institutions do not graduate in six years.
[/quote]
See above. 60% do! And how much overlap with the first group? You see, perhaps, a bit of double counting?<br>
And now for the biggest lie of all:
[quote]
Also, the past advantage of college graduates in the job market is eroding. Ever more students attend college at the same time as ever more employers are automating and sending offshore ever more professional jobs, and hiring part-time workers. Many college graduates are forced to take some very nonprofessional positions, such as driving a truck or tending bar.
[/quote]
Notice that this one does not have statistics? Notice the cute "ever more...many..." </p>
<p>The fact is, and I'm sure the author knows this, that for many jobs the screen is college degree. Don't have it? Sorry.</p>
<p>"If they had the prereqs in high school, even if they didn't go to college until they were 30 or 40, they would still be able to do so..."</p>
<p>Emeraldkity: If they're like me, they will have forgotten how to do algebra & trig and will have to take remedial courses anyway. English reading/writing/comprehension is not a problem as that is used every day, but math...except for balancing the checkbook or computing tips, it hasn't been used and has disappeared over the decades. Not to mention knowledge of biology & chemistry. And I used to be good in these subjects!</p>
<p>My point is, I don't think college prerequisites would be fulfilled by having had courses in high school 2 or 3 decades ago. Especially if we are talking about students who weren't interested in college back then and didn't do too great in non-vocational ed subjects.</p>
<p>calc was the lowest level math class that Ds school offered.
There is also a difference between brushing up and not being able to be admitted because you never took the class.
Recently I needed a math prerec for a soils class. I took the qualifying test even though I guessed every question & passed! ( I passed the class too)</p>
<p>In the abstract, I would agree that too many students are going to college. The problem is that we have passed a tipping point--with so many students going to college and even receiving degrees, many employers can now require college degrees for jobs that really have nothing to do with the skills taught in college. So we have a kind of prisoner's dilemma--we would all be better off if fewer students attended college and less money was spent on higher education, but the costs of not attending are much higher for individuals.</p>
<p>"we would all be better off if fewer students attended college and less money was spent on higher education"</p>
<p>Why would we be better off? I'm inclined to think that the better educated any group is, the better for everyone. On average, daily decisions on any subject are better, the more we know.</p>
<p>Sometimes college degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on. There are many people that have great jobs/careers without college degrees. In fact most retail places now in order to be a manager/asst. manager require a bachelors degree. Just imagine you send your child to college for a degree in chemistry/math/art/psychology and he/she ends up as an asst. manager at Abercrombie and Fitch making $10 an hour. Try paying off student loans on that. Yes, clean out your basements.</p>
<p>I would agree that many jobs don't require a college degree in order to do the job.
However, for upward mobility or even for more flexibility/options to change careers in later life- a degree is mandatory unless you are unusually bright/motivate/creative.</p>
<p>College is also a right of passage in this culture.
::::::::warning- non politically correct statement ahead::::::::::
If native born Americans rebelled against cost of education and found jobs that didn't require such, the colleges would still be full with those who sought education as a way to advance, the natural next step after coming to America, which is still a dream for many ( albeit not as popular as 30 years ago)</p>
<p>College is still a leg up and the way toward strengthening the middle class.
It also isn't just about buying power, it is about broadening your perspective and involvement in your community.</p>
<p>Even though my daughter is currently not in a job where a college degree is required, let alone a degree from a private liberal arts college known for rigor, I do not regret encouraging her to attend college because I know that the time she spent there, has enriched her life, and those lessons learned cannot be undone.</p>
<p>( plus after this school year is over- she is starting a different job ;) )</p>
<p>*Sometimes college degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on. There are many people that have great jobs/careers without college degrees. *</p>
<p>These are two different statements.</p>
<p>I would agree that some schools have low standards , don't require much of students to graduate, but accept their money happily.
These schools need to be examined if we are going to continue to support them by Pell grants/stafford loans etc.</p>
<p>There are also people who have great jobs without college degrees,
23 years ago, when my H began at Boeing, after his career at Todd shipyards ended when they all but closed the doors, he had a great job.</p>
<p>Good benefits, he liked his work as a tools specialist ,it was challenging and different everyday.
Unfortunately, even though he has a union position, he is still paid roughly the same wage, benefits have been cut and his work is still challenging, but very hard on his body now that he isn't 30 any more.</p>
<p>He has to spend a great deal of time, working with the engineers and helping them with their work, but he makes half what they do- if he had a degree, he could have a different classification for the same work.</p>
<p>"I would agree that many jobs don't require a college degree in order to do the job. However, for upward mobility or even for more flexibility/options to change careers in later life- a degree is mandatory unless you are unusually bright/motivate/creative."</p>
<p>I agree with this point. But the reason that a college degree is necessary for upward mobility is not because it is inherently useful in many cases, but rather because employers use the LACK of a degree a screening device. Indeed, I would argue that the vast increase in the number of degree holders from the middle class has in fact become a barrier to upward mobility for poor people who, for a variety of reasons, are far less likely to earn degrees.</p>
<p>A case in point (absolutely true). Many years ago, W, who comes from a low income, working class background and could not have afforded to attend college, started work as an accounting clerk in a construction company, working one level below best friend, who also did not go to college. Twenty years later, when she left that career to raise children, W was the CFO of the $100 million dollar company. Best friend is now high exec. at a Fortune 500 company.</p>
<p>Flash forward. In 2008, neither of these women could have gotten her foot in the door, because the job would have to some person with a degree who was frankly, no more able to do their jobs than they were. Now, you might say, it is easier for poor people to get a degree now. But it is still much more difficult for a poor person to begin and finish school than someone with greater resources.</p>
<p>Can you get your foot in the door without a degree? Let's say that you're a hot-shot trader and want to get into Wall St. I've heard that your best shot is to bring in your trading records.</p>
<p>How about Blake Ross? He started up the Firefox project with Hyatt as a teenager, attended Stanford for a while and then took a leave of absence to work in the private sector.</p>
<p>Can you network your way into the Fortune 500 without a college degree? I think that it is harder today than when I started but it is still possible. If you really are the go-getter, you will probably get a degree part-time while working your way up the ladder. The head of my company is a multi-billionaire and he doesn't have a college degree.</p>
<p>Right- Bill Gates doesn't have a college degree, neither does Steve Jobs.</p>
<p>College is an opportunity for those students who didn't grow up in areas with good schools, to continue and deepen their education.
It is an opportunity for them to meet others with similar interests.
There will always be places for entrepreneurs with or without degrees, especially if they don't need financial backing.</p>
<p>But again, further education is not just about income and career flexibility.</p>
<p>In my area, where many have advanced degrees not just a BA, lack of such is a real barrier.</p>
<p>Yes, it is possible for someone who is extraordinarily talented and/or extraordinarily lucky to get his foot in the door. The point is that the surfeit of people in their early 20's who don't have a clue but have a college degree has made it much more difficult for the disproportionately poor group of people who don't have such a degree to be upwardly mobile--particularly in a society where where the number of good paying blue collar jobs is shrinking.</p>
<p>This is a silly argument -- or else I just don't get it. </p>
<p>Are you saying that the solution to the shrinkig pool of blue collar jobs is MORE people with little or no education?</p>
<p>And why would someone hire anyone who "hasn't a clue" for a blue collar skill which that particular "clueless" college graduate doesn't have anyway?</p>
<p>My argument is simply this--that most of the education that young people receive in liberal arts programs is largely irrelevant to the demands of the workplace. The lack of a degree is simply an easy way for employers to eliminate a substantial number of disproportionately poor applicants.</p>
<p>So I am wondering what are the sorts of careers that people are thinking of that wouldn't at some point be enhanced by a broader education?</p>
<p>My previous life.
Cutting & Styling hair.
Could have been supported by courses in psychology, business, art & design , as well as chemistry and biology.</p>
<p>Massage, the above and also anatomy , more psychology, ethics, philosophy.</p>
<p>Customer service in an insurance agency. Business , computers, statistics, pysch, sociology.</p>
<p>In careers that I was self employed a degree wasn't required, but in any path that I was employed by someone else, a degree would have been to my benefit.</p>
<p>We are hardly going to go backwards, even if as you argue the higher education required and expected for employment is not always a necessity to do the minimum. But my grandfather for example had only an 8th grade education and he always regretted not being able to finish high school. ( he didn't speak about it, otherwise I would have encouraged him).</p>
<p>Stopping at high school, is rapidly becoming what leaving at 8th grade was, it limits your options no matter what social class you are.</p>
<p>As someone who graduated with a history degree and was unable to find a job out of college, returned to school to obtain an associates in nursing and found excellent work as an RN, I think I have a special insight into this discussion. </p>
<p>For a person to be properly educated, they need to go to college . Problem solving, interpersonal communication, research, verbal and written communication skills - these are all things that higher education addresses. And they are the skills that I use every day - managing a home, working as a nurse, running my own business, etc.... </p>
<p>But I admit, that piece of paper did not produce a job right away out of college. By returning to nursing school, I obtained the skills (and license) required to earn a good living in a field that has unlimited opportunities. I have no fear of being jobless; I can obtain work within a week of being unemployed. That's the nature of nursing. </p>
<p>The bacholors degree also helps when it comes to promotions or management opportunities. </p>
<p>For my own children, I encourage a techical trade in addition to the 4 year degree and I'm also strongly encouraging a masters for both of them. Why? Because when it comes to promotions and management, the masters is increasingly more important. </p>
<p>I do think that we need to be cautious when selecting a four year college - especially when our income is tight. $80,000 - $120,000 worth of debt is not worth it when the same degree can be had for $20,000 or less (with state aid, like the hope scholarship in Georgia).</p>