<p>A plumber might not need calculus but he should know how to figure how to place four equally spaced taps into a 6 foot run of pipe and other such math. Most plumbers I have met were pretty smart guys.</p>
<p>"There are direct benefits to having a well-rounded education. Like the ability to have a decent conversation, for example."</p>
<p>Don't you think that a motivated person can learn things on their own? My friend's grandfather is the most well read and smartest person I know. Left school after 9th grade. (though he would kill his grandson if he didn't finish college :D).</p>
<p>Left school after 9th grade. (though he would kill his grandson if he didn't finish college ).</p>
<p>and why do you think that is?
Perhaps it is because he doesn't want his grandson to have the same barriers that he did?</p>
<p>Of course, but my point is that it is possible to learn things outside of college. This includes culture, literature, science and even advanced calculus for some. </p>
<p>College grads are not the only ones who are able to carry on a "decent conversation" and those without degrees shouldn't be looked down upon.</p>
<p>"There are direct benefits to having a well-rounded education. Like the ability to have a decent conversation, for example."</p>
<p>For most people, conversation revolves around family, job, last week's football game or current events, none of which requires a liberal arts education.</p>
<p>I think this article makes an excellent point - one of course that is lost on CCers since we are all from Lake Wobegon.</p>
<p>Those of you who have kids in "regular" public high schools - look at the bottom half of your kid's graduating class. Many of these kids are being encouraged to go to college. Some were perhaps even discouraged from attending the Vo-Tech school because they are "smart enough" for college.
They will attend the nearest public college and will struggle.<br>
Many will not finish the first year and of those who do will drop out later - some will drop out, go back, drop out again and go back again.
They will spend many years working at low paying jobs while going to school. They will rack up loans trying to pay for it - soon they will be in their mid 20's, no degree, no skilled job and trying to pay off all those loans while trying to figure out what to do with their life.
Many times it is not because they are not "smart" enough - but they had financial or family situations that got in the way. These kids do not have trust funds or families that can sacrifice to pay their way. It is ridiculous for kids to borrow tens of thousands of dollars for a degree they may not get - they are better off working.</p>
<p>Now look at the kids who went to Vo-Tech or a community college where they trained for a job. They are construction workers, masons, electrician, nurses, lab tech's, X-Ray techs etc....... They will have been gainfully employed since they were 18 or 20 years old, many with jobs with good pay and benefits and even a 401K. When they are a little older and more mature and ready - they can go get their degree. These students as adults will bring life experience and maturity to the classroom.</p>
<p>There was an article in our local paper today - a 32 year old woman is graduation from a satelite campus of our state university and is headed to Cornell Vet school. She went to college for one year after high school. Dropped out, spent 6 years in the Army, went to community college for her A.S. degree and transferred to the local U. She took the "long way" but she is gettin' it done. Power to her.</p>
<p>Those of you who have kids in "regular" public high schools - look at the bottom half of your kid's graduating class. Many of these kids are being encouraged to go to college.</p>
<p>If only they were encouraged to go to college.
I certainly wasn't encouraged to go to college- the result was I was put in a track that was so boring, I didn't see the point in even attending.
By mistake one year I was put into the college track class and the teacher was befuddled because I easily rose to the challenge of the work, when I had just done the bare minimum in the " dumb class" the year before.
However, most of my other classes had low expectations, and I really didn't see the point of sitting through a class to answer questions at the end of the chapter. ( when the answers were in the back of the book)</p>
<p>My daughters inner city high school does have a principal who would like every student to at least attempt an AP class at some point during their 4 years, and he backs it up by supporting the teachers who give them extra help.
My daughter who had an IEP in elementary and middle school, began below grade level, but soon started taking AP classes in some subjects while she was still in remedial in others. As a senior she will have finished 4 AP classes in high school ( Euro american govt- AP lit & us history)</p>
<p>However, I have heard many parents say that they discourage their kids from taking AP or honors classes, because that is "too much work" and takes away from their free time.
They don't want their kid to be putting on "airs" thinking that they could go to college.
We have to have the same standards for every one.</p>
<p>They don't want their kid to be putting on "airs" thinking that they could go to college.
We have to have the same standards for every one.</p>
<p>amending my post for clarification.
Im not saying we can't have support/remedial classes, or advanced/college classes for students where that is appropriate.
We SHOULD do that.
But the expectations should be high for everyone & it need to start much much earlier than high school.</p>
<p>My rich neighbor is a plumber. And my rich uncle is a roofer.</p>
<p>I advised my son, who would not exactly be considered 'college material' (he got 19's and 20's on his ACT scores in high school--that translates to 500's on the SAT) to go to college and major in anything, and that he would go to technical school after college graduation and there find his way of making a living. I wanted to make sure he had that college degree because the future is always so uncertain. Suppose he discovered his passion later on, and then had to go to college to pursue it, but perhaps would be unable given possible future family responsibilities. This way, with the college degree under his belt obtained right after high school, he only has to take the courses for that new major if he discovers some new passion in his later years.</p>
<p>Lo and behold, the boy is getting thru the civil engineering workload (he's now a senior) at a so-so 4 yr. technology college, and depending on the month, says he wants to work as a civil engineer after college. He's no longer so sure about the trade track we had decided on pre-college.</p>
<p>I think every student with even average ACT/SAT results should try college. With the right work ethic, graduation is quite possible.</p>
<p>I wanted to add this random comment: My son really really enjoyed his two philosophy classes in college. </p>
<p>He couldn't fit in any more than those 2 once he started in civil engineering (he originally went into computer engineering because he played videogames all the time in high school--ran into difficulty due to not being able to understand the accents of the foreign-born professors during the first year in that computer engineering major, so I convinced him to switch to civil engineering just to have a major--and I had a hunch he might like it more, as well as civil engineering might be a more versatile field--and depending on the week/month he agrees with me on that).</p>
<p>schoolmarmABC - contrary to popular belief on CC forum - plenty of kids do well in college with 500's on their SAT's.
I would not say your son is <em>not</em> college material based on that.</p>
<p>We have gone from not encouraging kids to go to college to demanding that our children go to college in one generation.</p>
<p>These days most adults I know who are college grads INSIST that their children go to college - even if they do have the desire to go.
Regardless of academic ability - if your child does not have the desire for college right after high school they should not be forced and they are not destined to a life as a grocery store clerk.</p>
<p>Lo and behold, the boy is getting thru the civil engineering workload (he's now a senior) at a so-so 4 yr. technology college, and depending on the month, says he wants to work as a civil engineer after college. He's no longer so sure about the trade track we had decided on pre-college.</p>
<p>That sounds great. Congratulations to him!</p>
<p>We really need more poly tech type colleges.
In another lifetime, I was a nanny to a little boy who went to CalPoly SLO and is now retrofitting cars to run bio diesel. ( for his own company)</p>
<p>I am at a community college in a vocational horticulture program and the amount of hard science ( chem- bio-physics- geology) that I am having to cram into my head ( even though I have taken a good bit of bio previous), is so overwhelming I had to reduce my schedule to part time, because it is so rigorous.( also a good bit of trig)</p>
<p>Students who are prepared to go to college by their high school coursework, are doing much better even in vocational programs than those who weren't.</p>
<p>Even ( especially) if your field is construction- plumbing-electrical- or any number of things , a good math- science- background is so needed.</p>
<p>The trouble with :
Vocational schools is that too often they are for profit- which is a bag of worms right there.
Even some of the vocational programs at community colleges are outdated.
I used to be a peer advisor at a Seattle community college and we had several computer certificate and two year degree programs- obstensibly to prepare students for work in the field.
Microsoft was going far afield to hire people so students knew they were really needed.
However- the programs at the community college were outdated- rather than teaching what employers wanted- they were teaching what the teachers knew.
When the students graduated, they were not trained in the skills they needed to find work.</p>
<p>( I was a college transfer advisor- so I only worked with students who were taking classes to transfer to 4 year colleges- which the computer classes did not, but I knew about the problems with the computer programs, because former students would come back and they were p<em>i</em>s<em>s</em>e<em>d</em>, it also put the advisors in an awkward position because we couldn't really do anything about the content of the programs)</p>