Since the coaches are in competition with each other I wouldn’t think they’d communicate much about prospects, but based on what I’ve seen I agree completely.
There are lots of slots on NCAA teams for unranked strong C’s with good grades. In fact, a fencer I know who fits that description was recruited by Duke, was a solid contributor, and ended up being elected team captain.
In light of a couple of recent posts, I’ll share some information I learned in a recent PM. Out of respect for the fencer’s privacy I’ll omit any reference to weapon, gender, or college, but suffice it to say that in at least one case an Ivy coach has been willing to give likely letter level support to an academically strong sub-C level fencer.
@sherpa I know you said you don’t want to give info on what college, but as a sub-C level fencer with a 240 AI, I’m really interested in knowing what kinds of places I would have a shot at getting “likely letter support.”
Could you expand on where those places might be? I’m assuming not Harvard/Columbia/other very competitive top fencing programs.
Another poster, @BrooklynRye, said that “Brown and Yale, as well as Stanford, and to a certain extent Duke, put academics substantially ahead of athletic accomplishments” so would those be worth looking into?
@anaman - I sent you a PM.
@sherpa Thanks for the support.
I think that’s a good message for people to hear. Given the title of this thread, I completely understand the number of posts about Ivy League, LLs, AIs, and such. You are always good about pointing out other strong programs too, even in Div3. There are some kids who aren’t looking for admission support, they just really want to continue fencing at a quality school on a quality team with good coaching and strong school support, because they just love to fence!
@sherpa Nice to see you back! You are the king of of this thread.
“Since the coaches are in competition with each other I wouldn’t think they’d communicate much about prospects, but based on what I’ve seen I agree completely.”
I was surprised too. But when you think more, it actually makes sense: elite college coaches don’t want to get into awkward position of fighting for a good fencer. This is not basketball or football after all. Their “elite” ego would not allow them to do that. Another reason is fencing is such a small world where everybody knows everybody else, especially coaches. So let me put it this way: there is no secret in fencing circle.
FWIW, I went to the Squad Championships at Princeton a few weekends ago to spectate. There was a wide range of skill/experience on display. From at least one person who is on the top of the Junior Team Points list in his weapon to people who aren’t on any national list.
I agree with Sherpa and other folks: you don’t have to be a top fencer with top academics to be recruited. I have seen tons of OK fencers with great academics recruited by elite colleges and great fencers with OK to poor academics recruited by good colleges (there is no low end college with fencing team anyway). Matter of fact, fencing is the sport with highest chance for a high school athlete to keep playing in the college varsity team. Check this out:
Well, this is timely given the recent posts… Just saw this posted on FB by Notre Dame Fencing:
“Sophomore foilist Erin Dietsche came to Notre Dame as a walk-on with a ‘D’ rating. Through perseverance, dedication and inherent athletic talent, Erin has not only seen her rating improve to ‘A’ status, but has become a role model in her own right on a team full of collegiate and Olympic-caliber superstars.”
Here’s a link to the ND article about Dietsche:
I agree that there are NCAA spots for a high percentage of fencers, but the statistics in the link are flawed, because they use the number of fencers on high school teams in the numerator, while most truly competitive fencers don’t fence on HS teams. For example, our USFA Division is well represented in the NCAA, but there are exactly ZERO HS fencing teams in our Division.
The discussion of the recruitment of the very top fencers reminds me of an old Steve Martin bit:
“How to be a millionaire and not pay taxes…first, get a million dollar, then….”
Of course if you are a consistent NAC, WC, Olympic multi-medalist, have a top 5 ranking on the JNPS and have an AI close to 240, there is little on this thread or CC in general that can add to this level of fencer’s recruitment toolbox.
Readers of this thread are fortunate that many different perspectives have been represented and I think for the general reader the takeaway should be that there are some basic college recruiting fundamentals that all fencers and their families should know about. While the pursuit of fencing superstardom is a worthwhile path for some, it is not be the only way to enjoy intercollegiate fencing in after high school.
I stand by my initial postings (beginning with #267) with regards to my best advice to fencers and their families to approach the college recruitment process.
As those of have been following my postings are aware, my son was not a #1 fencer and did not have a perfect AI, but his fencing accomplishments and academic record were pretty strong.
To be honest, I believe much of the success our son enjoyed as a recruit was a product of the depth our understanding of the recruitment process. Not being discouraged when coaches do not acknowledge your correspondence , continuing to regularly update everyone his academic and fencing improvements (when no one seems to care), and most importantly, not listening to the non-binding commitment noise were central to our approach.
In my opinion, there are enough competitive fencing programs that even if all the #1 fencers in a given year go to their top choices, recruitment at college programs is still possible if you approach the process with proper focus and discipline.
FWIW, in our recruitment year, a number of the academically-elite programs took non-elite fencers. If you look at the rosters at Yale, Brown, Stanford (and others) there are some names that have no overlap with the top 50 on the JNPL. Additionally, some of the non-academically elite fencing powerhouse schools, exhibit similar phenomena for the larger squads. It is worth noting that some squads that have elite fencers who expect to continue to fence at NAC/WC/Olympic schedules, often need larger rosters, so they will have a complete team to fence the NCAA events. I was surprised at how many top fencers at other schools were not at my son’s NCAA events due to conflicts with NAC and WC events.
With regard to the recent discussion on whether coaches talk to each other, in our experience they do, however, not all the coaches get along, so some talk with each other more than others. During our recruitment year, we took the “Ivy League Trail” (otherwise known as the Amtrak Northeast Corridor Line)train ride to have our unofficial visits in July after SN. We started at one end of the Trail and moved down the line. In general, all the meetings went well, however, when we arrived at the final school on the Trail, the coach told us he heard our son had committed to another school (the first school on the Trail). I assured him we hadn’t, but it was really unsettling that these two coaches seemed to be in such close communication. In the end, our son committed to neither of these schools.
I am not sure if any of the programs felt they knew our son’s preferences, and quite frankly from an academics standpoint we would have been happy with any of the programs. That being said, there are vast differences between elite college fencing programs and important nuances to be aware of before anyone, from Superstar #1s to Lucky-to-be-theres, make a final commitment. More on this in a future post.
Now that our son is in his first year at college, I think fencers and their families also need to be aware that there is a big difference between NCAA fencing and NAC/WC events. The team aspect (and the resulting comradery/support) is really fun compared to the solitude/loneliness of individual competition. One only has to watch the 2016 Ivy Championships to see the different “vibe” of the competitions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNfgDGe3_6E
Quite frankly, I think the NCAA style of competition is more fun and possibly more healthy than the NAC style. While many fencers continue to fence in NAC and WC type competitions in college, many do not. Elite college programs offer varying degrees of support/flexibility to fencers who want to do both, and it is important to discuss these expectations during the recruitment process.
In any case, I am glad of the recent feedback this thread has generated and hopeful for all of those still in the process. Good luck to all and let us know how things have worked out.
Sherpa, I know you are respecting the fencer’s privacy in your post above, but can you shed any more light and offer any advice on this subject?My son is in a very similar situation, C rated fencer with a very strong academic record. He would love to fence in college, academically challenging college that is. He is currently a sophomore, just starting reading this helpful discussion, but honestly, he is lost (and we as parents are lost as well) and don’t think he has any real chances on getting to fence on a college team.
This topic always makes me chuckle, because most of the parents/fencers are pretty good students, but not NCAA champions, so you have students that want be in sports
Four years after the recruiting,
the practice and …
I can only speak on the last four years at the D-1 program with the largest facilities, the largest athletic budget and most dismal NCAA results for a program with the resources financially, but lack so much of the other essentials that make a program work.
Weapons coaches–that they either think they do not need or the inability to hire, attract or location where any coaches want to come. It’s a nasty secret in the fencing community that coaches don’t want to come, nor work for this individual----so they import coaches who have lasted usually less than the five month season
the previous coaches have left and the results are 3-NCAA Championship in five years/one US World Champion, one NCAA championship (same school different weapons Foil/Epee)
do we even want to talk about how fencers are treated? removed from teams, lied too, not developed and what’s more,fence in an environment where results in NCAA/NAC/International competition mean nothing when favorites are selected, because of…previous relationships that include payments, holding of passports and drivers license etc…
(let me be clears pymts might mean I put your athlete on scholarship since you sponsored my application to come to the US,talent not a requirement. or pymts of a % of whatever money a coach makes in the US (event at events where they are paid to officiate) because of the sponsorship
Sexism, Racism and then some all part of the mix,now maybe this is at all programs, but I’d truly like to think not…but in a forthcoming book comparing the various programs based on “fencer talk” you’ll get a better look into a few vaulted programs.
but after this experience,basketball and wrestling do not have near as much drama over a sport,that draws very few fans
Your grammar-free writing style and often bitter and sarcastic comments have been absent from this thread for quite some time.
While I have always found your posts difficult to understand*, I am guessing your family’s college fencing experience did not meet your expectations.
To keep things positive and helpful (and in the spirit of CC) can you give this audience any cautionary advice to those who are earlier in the process?
What do you know now that you didn’t know then?
What would you do differently if you had to do it again?
Which programs do you admire? Which programs do you not admire?
I am sure you have rare and unique insights that other posters on this thread cannot hope to match (are you the author of the forthcoming book?).
As you are near the end of your fencing career, I encourage you to be frank.
Please take this post in the positive spirit it is given. I am sure you have a lot to share.
*with all due respect, it seems you are typing your posts to this thread on a phone keyboard. If possible, typing your response on a computer keyboard (and review it before posting) may make your posts easier to read/understand.
@Monomin - An academically strong C rated fencer will have a lot of options. Though recruitment at Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, or Harvard will be highly unlikely, a C would be welcomed as a walk on. Recruitment will be more likely at some other academically strong colleges, such as the other Ivies, Duke, Brandeis, Vassar, Haverford, and Johns Hopkins.
I’d recommend he reach out to coaches during his junior year by sending a combined academic/fencing resume and asking to schedule unofficial visits in the spring.
Good luck to your son!
Thank you, Sherpa. What about Notre Dame? I haven’t seen Notre Dame mentioned a lot in this thread, or maybe just missed it. Can anyone shed more light on this school? Is it in the same group as Princeton, Harvard…as far as only accepting the highest ranked fencers, or the other group or somewhat in between? Thanks for any information.
@Monomin - IMHO, UND is a hybrid, between the Ivies and what I refer to as the “big box” schools. Notre Dame is clearly not an Ivy League school. While very highly ranked and respected, it is not in a league with Harvard, Princeton, Yale or Columbia. It is, however, clearly deemed superior academically to other large-recruiting D1 programs such as OSU and PSU. It is also clearly more competitive than its sub-Ivy League peers such as Duke and UNC. Purely from a fencing standpoint, UND perennially fields one of the best run and competitive D1 fencing programs in the country. The program features first-rate administration and coaching which is often reflected in Olympic fencers, e.g., Gerek Meinhardt and Lee Kiefer, and Olympic hopefuls. I know that the academic standards are pretty high, but not as high as those for Ivy League schools. As a competitive program, UND will of course target the highest ranked fencers, but the school tends to carry a relatively large squad and will go further down the depth chart to make sure there are plenty of competitive fencers on its squad. Hope this is helpful.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything @BrooklynRye wrote and would add that ND can and DOES offer athletic scholarships, which helps it attract athletes who are academically qualified for elite colleges who come from families whose income is above the need based aid thresholds at the non scholarship schools.