I guess this has been available since January, but I just discovered it:
Interesting data on ratings/rankings of the current Ivy fencing freshmen in the Class of 2019.
This should provide insight on a lot of the recent questions.
Here is the info about this yearās elite college recruited fencers:
Here is similar data for DIII schools:
What I find interesting about the class of 2019 data from this website:
- Only 40% of the freshmen on Ivy fencing programs are A rated
- Over 50% of the freshmen at DIII fencing programs are U rated.
To me this says fencing at a team level in college is very attainable for those who are so inclined.
@superdomestique - Think I missed the 40% Ivy stat. Is that in this article? I always get frustrated with these statistical analyses. As a words/thought guy, as opposed to a numbers guy, Iām always waiting for the written conclusion or inferences from the author. The stats, while interesting and conversation-provoking, are hardly surprising. The very top fencers almost always opt for DV1 schools. There are circumstances, e.g., financial, location or special, under which a top fencer may opt for a DV2 or DV3 school, but these seem pretty rare among the very top ranked fencers. For those who are not the best (perhaps not even close) without sacrificing academic rigor, DV3 can be a perfect fit. The article does, however, glide over the fact that in most cases one has to be able to pay in full to attend one of these very expensive private DV3 colleges. The 50% Unrated stat IS a surprise. Although I would guess at the DV3 level, academics are much more important and the pool gets rapidly shallower as the top fencers opt for DV1 or leave fencing altogether. Besides, NCAA fencing is a totally different ballgame. Fencers who were not particularly successful on the NAC circuit may suddenly find themselves at the core of an NCAA team. Bravo!
The stats above are interesting, but if you dig deeper, they make sense.
The points lists on US Fencing site include birth year, so you can get a sense of the size of the pool of elite fencers in each school year and weapon. For example, in the Womenās Foil Junior Point list, there are only 27 women on the full list with a 1998 birth year (likely HS seniors).
If you believe the āUnverifiable Rumors and Dubious Gossip about 2016 Collegiate Incoming Fencersā thread on fencing.net (and itās probably pretty correct), 5 class of 2016 women foilists on the junior point list have already committed to either Notre Dame or UPenn for the 2016 incoming class. That leaves very few āpoint listā fencers for over 40 NCAA schools. I expect some Div3 coaches are probably very happy when a walk-in with a E rating suddenly appears in the fall to fill out a roster.
@stencils: One caveat when looking at birthdates is that some kids may be in a different graduating class than their birth year might indicate. So any given class may be deeper (or shallower) than it appears to be.
Iām interested if anyone has insight on the process at Div 1 schools that are not the HYP types. I mentor a fencer who is a HS sophomore. He is a RH MF C and would like to be an A by end of Junior year which is not unrealistic. Iām not a promoter of rating chasing so heās going to need to earn it at a NAC or RJCC as local tournaments usually arenāt A opportunities due to lack of fencers.
So letās say by Junior year November heās a strong C or B. On the academic side letās say a 3.3 unweighted GPA and a 27 ACT, this would be consistent with current grades/psat projection. He attends a very competitive Jesuit prep Highschool and plans to continue with 1 or 2 AP classes a year. He enjoys the Jesuit educational atmosphere and is looking at BC and Detroit Mercy which are Jesuit and Div 1 fencing schools. He also is checking out Sacred Heart and probably others since we are just starting process. He also likes OSU and one of his coaches fenced for OSU in the not that distant past. Based on admission standards and my best guess on the 25/75 stats BC and OSU may be reach schools with Sacred Heart and Detroit Mercy being good fit or safety on the Academic side. Looking for Liberal Arts and not sure major.
Heās not necessarily looking for scholarship money as much as fit and maybe some admission assistance. His EFC is likely to be 0 and eligible for full federal assistance but Iām guessing heās not a good enough fencer for a full athletic since there seem to be few of those.
Other factors Heās an economically disadvantaged Hispanic with an interesting story, who will be first to go to college in family. He will have great reference letters from teachers. I wish I was as coachable as he is, he learns new actions and even incorporates small changes to things like footwork or hand position after a single lesson, practices new things without being reminded and asks intelligent strategy questions about when to use new tools. At a tournament recently he made it to gold medal bout, lost and hugged the opponent because they both felt it was a great bout. He had only met the kid once at JOās a few weeks before where they warmed up for a few 5s together. He doesnāt melt down. He will happily fence the newest kid, adult rec fencer or A and enjoy the bout. Heād like a school where he could make the travel team.
Any information on process for the named schools or suggestions of other schools would be appreciated. Heās open to schools with competitive club teams with coaching but probably couldnāt afford a fee based local club as a college student.
Iām a fencer but never sheparded a kid through the college application process. I was a college athlete but different sport and long ago.
Hi @fenceforthejoy. Although I am not a fan of rankings or what I perceive as their out-sized importance, as a strong C or B, your fencer is right in the pocket for the non-HYP DV1 schools on that criterion. However, I think his GPA and ACT scores fall a bit short of the standards for BC. Detroit Mercy and Sacred heart are much better targets. OSU would be at the top of your studentās range and is obviously a much more competitive fencing program. A few touches here and there and, even one fencer short, OSU could be hoisting the 2016 NCAA Championship trophy in Columbus. This said, he is at a strong Jesuit prep school and has a great story. Many schools have specific pathways for students who will be the first in their family to go to college. You should look into these. As economically hardship, your student should almost certainly receive substantial financial aid anywhere he goes. Whether or not he makes an NCAA Championship, most schools will welcome a competitive fencer who is willing to learn and will contribute to even the strongest team. Good luck!
Iāve just come through the same process with my S who has a similar GPA and standardized test scores. Different weapon and economic/personal circumstances, however. Generally, the same national rating trajectory though.
With those similarities and differences in mind, our S did NOT get into BC, UNC or Haverford. This would suggest your studentās grades/tests are low for those schools. I agree with @BrooklynRye advice to look at some other schools (which are still great).
My $0.02 of advice based on our familyās experience:
- Read the other comments and the official NCAA rules for the appropriate contact with coaches email/phone and at National Events. Make the appropriate contacts as early as possible (but according to the rules).
- Look at DivIII schools. All schools compete together, regardless of Division. In fact, the 2016 NCAA Championship had a menās foilist from Lawrence University who came up through the Midwest Conference. Haverford hasnāt been in the Championship in MF for years.
- Consider ALL the NCAA fencing schools. Our son was selective about applying to fencing schools (too selectiveā¦there were a couple schools where the coach contacted him, but he wasnāt interested in the school). But he did get into some other non-fencing (or good club) colleges.
- Work with his club coach for introductions to college coaches. Use personal contacts.
Lastly, unless he really, really wants to compete in the NCAA there are a lot of excellent schools with club level fencing (which compete against other schools) that are in his sights.
Hereās an interesting graphic that shows which colleges are sending kids to the NCAAās
http://nationalfencingclubrankings.com/ranking-performance-fencing-clubs-2016-national-collegiate-mens-womens-fencing-championships/
Iād like to chime in about the merits of Div III fencing. Daughter (WS D16) had excellent academic stats and good, but not stellar fencing results (only one national podium finish). Was on a strong Div III team in Mid-Atlantic NCAA conference and they fenced many Div I teams and held their own. Great coaches, great facilities, chartered bus transportation, lots of āblingā from the university - would recommend the Div III experience at this university to other families. Just do your homework - not all Div III programs are alike or offer so many perks.
I wonder if anyone can mention something about what happens during a year when the recruits are in low numbers My daughter is a 1999. There are about 9 girls who are 1999 in Womens Sabre who will be seniors next year. It is a smaller recruit number for sure. That being said , what are the chances that top 25 on junior points list with 4.8 weighted/3.9 unweighted and SAT of 2200 will be one of top recruits? She is looking at Ivys especially.
The answer to your question largely depends on the recruitment needs and capacities of each school, as well as on the target schools of the higher ranked recruits. Where your daughter is ranked on the junior points list is less important than where she is ranked on the list of prospective recruits. I assume that top 25 is an unfiltered ranking and that your daughter is probably in the top 10 of her recruiting class. The grades and scores are a definite plus and will carry particular weight at schools that, while less competitive, emphasize academics more, e.g., Yale and Brown. Schools such as Harvard and Columbia are always sought-after because of the trifecta of top school, competitive fencing program, and great location. Personally, I think that UPenn should also be included among these schools. In any case, try to think of this as a game of musical chairs. Your daughter and about 5-10 other fencers are circling a limited number of chairs. Soon people, particularly those at the very top, will start to sit down. The big question looming for you is do you pass on opportunities at Ivies that may be lower on your list, for a shot at one of your top choices. Good luck!
Thank you as always for your reply! There are only two girls ahead of her in recruiting list based on points. I donāt know about the girlās grades or scores. I think my daughter is most competitive with grades, scores and extra curricular activities. So hopefully she is the first recruit.
I generally agree that with your daughterās national ranking and academic credentials, she should be able to be recruited for the Class of 2021 at most Ivies to the degree these programs have needs in your gender/weapon (WS).
That being said, while you are correct that there are not many 1999 WS candidates, there are quite a few 1998 WS fencers (at least 10) that will be joining elite college teams this fall for the Class of 2020. You will need to see where these 1998 WS fencers land before you can determine what schools have (or donāt have) needs in your daughterās year.
It is not yet known where all the 1998 WS have committed, however this link should give you some useful data: http://www.fencing.net/forums/threads/unverifiable-rumors-and-dubious-gossip-about-2016-collegiate-incoming-fencers.80644/page-2
A quick look at the current 2015-2016 Ivy fencing rosters indicates the number of current WS team members who will still be on the team when your daughter matriculates in 2017, plus 2 years of attrition (in parentheses)
Harvard
1 (2 current members will have graduated)
Yale
1 (4 current members will have graduated)
Brown
1 (3 current members will have graduated)
Columbia
4 (2 current members will have graduated)
Princeton
4 (2 current members will have graduated)
Penn
2 (4 current members will have graduated)
Cornell
7 (4 current members will have graduated)
While the fencing.net information is not comprehensive, it does show that for the WS Class of 2020: Columbia may be adding 2, Princeton may be adding 1, and Penn may be adding 1, with several other top ranked 1998 WS fencers unaccounted for.
Based on this incomplete dataset and the current rosters, one could guess that Harvard, Yale, and Brown may have the greatest WS needs for the Class of 2021 while Columbia, Princeton, Penn and Cornell may have the least.
Generally most Ivy teams try to have at least 3 fencers per gender/weapon. Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Brown tend to run smaller squads (3-4) and Columbia, Penn and Cornell (4+) historically have had relatively larger ones.
It is worth noting that in @brooklynryeās earliest posts on this thread, he makes the argument that many of the most highly-ranked fencers typically have their college recruiting commitments well before SN.
Please let us know if this is your experience. Good luck.
Thank you! Very very thorough eval. What I donāt understand is what commitment actually means when the coaches canāt officially talk to the fencer until July 1. We have shared scores and transcripts with coaches so far and have a few meetings with some coaches at Summer Nationals. How can some fencers have it wrapped up BEFORE they can even talk to the coaches? That is against Ncaa rules or am I naive?
As @brooklynrye, @sherpa and I discussed in posts #361 thru #370, the answer to your question is YES.
I guess a lot depends on how highly-ranked your fencer is.
In our case, our son was ranked high enough (top 10 HS senior, top 25 JNPL) and largely went thru the recruiting process in accordance with all the NCAA rules/timelines. Our son wrote to a lot of coaches as a junior and had his initial discussions with college coaches at SN before senior year.
In cases where the fencer is very/much more highly-rated, I have learned that the recruitment process can begin much earlier/more aggressive, albeit in a non-binding format.
I personally donāt believe in making these kind of decisions based on non-binding commitments, but that is just my personal proclivity.
It is worth noting that while each of our paths was different, we all met the same coaches and for the most part, received LL offers from the same Ivy programs in our respective recruitment years.
@fencingmom1, given your daughterās high ranking, it will be interesting to see which path you experience in the recruiting process. Again, a lot will depend on which program has WS needs in your recruitment year.
Please keep us up to date on your progression.
I will and thank you and everyone for taking the time to answer. This is not an easy path to follow. Although my daughter has had great results at several Nacs and nationals and international events and has brought home lots of medals, she has dedicated herself to her education because she wants to be worthy of an Ivy with her grades and commitment to learning. It has been a risk but her education comes first unlike some other fencers.
This is an important observation. Someone ranked 25th on the points list might be #5 in their recruiting year, and odds are the four kids ahead of them in points wonāt all be academically qualified for all the top fencing colleges.
@fencingmom1 Also, donāt forget to consider the current strength of the squad. An A fencer on the junior points list, even if a strong recruit academically, may not be in the top 3 of the roster at certain Ivies for their gender/weapon, at least as a freshman. My understanding is that this means they will practice with the team, but may not frequently compete.
There are other Ivies where that same A/points list fencer would be #1 on the squad right away, depending on gender/weapon.
My daughter is also a junior, but in a different weapon, so weāre not competing for the same slots 
Iām sure others on the board can comment, but Iāve heard that on strong squads with more than 3 or 4 per gender/weapon, thereās a sense of internal competition within the team to actually get to compete. Perhaps some experienced parents can comment on this?