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<p>I made a similar choice in both English and history in 11th grade. I took the courses that were one level down from the top because the content was more interesting. But the advantage of the more interesting content was more than offset by the lower academic level of the class. I was bored, and I regretted my decision.</p>
<p>Do you live in a high performing school district? If so…you can find out how many kids who did NOT take AP English were admitted to Ivies and top LAC’s. Your child may not want Princeton and Stanford…but…for your school district…AP English Lit may be a “basic” for the top LAC’s, too. </p>
<p>It is not necessary to play the game…but just be aware that there might be consequences. By the time that your child applies to schools, she may have such a unique profile that she can get into Swat or Wesleyan or even Stanford or Princeton without AP English Lit. But…if, for your school district, AP English in Jr year (and whatever the senior year follow up to AP English is) has historically been part of the basics to be considered for admissions…your daughter may want to reconsider.</p>
<p>Is there room in her schedule to take AP Lit and the honors English course?</p>
<p>Contrary to what you might think reading this site, you don’t have to take every AP available at your school to keep your doors open - and that’s really what it’s all about. (And by the way you can study both music and English at Stanford or Princeton if you want to, you don’t have to go to a LAC.)</p>
<p>Both my kids looked at the AP Lit curriculum and the reputation of the teacher and opted out. Not only did they not take AP Lit they didn’t even take honors as seniors. They both took English electives and enjoyed getting A’s and reading books they enjoyed as seniors. They never regretted it. It didn’t keep my oldest out of Harvard or Carnegie Mellon and it didn’t keep my youngest out of Tufts, U of Chicago or Vassar. (There’s a notion in our district that you have to take AP Lit, most of the top students do, but what they don’t know is that it’s not true as long as the rest of your schedule is rigorous the colleges don’t care.)</p>
<p>There are lots of good schools out there, and plenty for students who like to follow their own path too. There have been a number of good suggestions upthread, here’s another somewhat off the wall idea. Would she like St. John’s Great Books curriculum? It tends to attract bright kids who don’t like to follow the usual rules.</p>
<p>I wanted to add here:</p>
<p>My younger D, for her senior year in high school, took AP English, honors government/econ, AP Calc (so far so good), honors chorus/band, senior Theater, health! (she waited for her senior year to take it!), Music Theory.</p>
<p>She didn’t take another lab science (and our school has a number of AP science courses). She didn’t continue her French.</p>
<p>I honestly was opposed to this schedule, but she insisted and I let her make her own choices.</p>
<p>And yet, she was admitted as a freshman to Macaulay Honors, then transferred to Smith for her sophomore year. Her Smith GPA is 3.32. She is doing just fine. She was also accepted to some very good schools both as a freshman and as a transfer (Mt. Holyoke, Boston College, Syracuse - Newhouse school).</p>
<p>As I posted before, as long as she is not really slacking, taking an honors class over an AP class is not going to derail her college chances.</p>
<p>I thought you were writing about my D2! My view is that she’s 16 years old and owns her education. She should take whatever she wants. She will still be admitted to a great college. I think that fostering love of learning and individuality is much more important than fostering a narrow view of achievement. Whatever college that she might be giving up by not toeing the line is not the right college for THIS kid anyway.</p>
<p>Pay attention to post #s 20 and 21.</p>
<p>If your D has been in classes with the brightest kids in her school, she may be sadly disappointed in the way the class is taught if she drops down a level.</p>
<p>Basically, she needs to take the college question off the table and really, really, really ask where she’s going to find the intellectually company she’s seeking. She should talk to the teachers. </p>
<p>Then, when that’s clear in her mind, she can ask the college question.</p>
<p>At many of the top private schools hardly anyone takes all APs and many kids only take the ones that interest them. At my son’s boarding school, AP classes were extremely intense and students were NOT encouraged to take APs across the board.</p>
<p>I think your daughter will be fine and should take what interests her. There are plenty of colleges out there and your daughter will have great choices.</p>
<p>“Believe it or not, colleges ARE looking for kids who like to learn.”</p>
<p>Of course. The question is how to present oneself in way that differentiates from the myriad of oh-so-common 4.0 AP-taking students. (We’re talking the CC-crowd here folks.) And especially, how does one do this without self-mocking arguments like “Yes my curriculum is weak and my grades low … but that’s because I really love to learn.”</p>
<p>I think it’s much easier to tailor an honest application to Reed or Smith or Grinnell, than it is to plead for Yale admission “despite my grades and curriculum.”</p>
<p>If she wants out of the game, then fine. Realize that she may not get the prize if she doesn’t pay. Not that I think skipping out on an AP lit class is going to deal a fatal blow, but if her school gets acceptess that tend to fit a certain profile and the GC is warning you that this is not going to cut it for the most rigorous curriculum, she might know what she is talking about.</p>
<p>My friend’s D was not accepted to her alma mater which has accepted 4 generations including the sister. The reason was that the girl did not want to “play the game”. She basically spent senior year doing things that she wanted to do which was not taking rigorous courses and no courses in math and science which she despised despite doing very well in them. They thought that the “take your own path” and not “playing the game” would be something different and would attract attention. The ECs that year were truly stellar and supported what she wants to do in college. But the college wanted that rigor more. </p>
<p>But if you truly want “out of the game” there are plenty of excellent colleges that will certainly accept a student like OP’s D. My friend’s D is very happy at the school she ended up attending and it is a better fit for her than what her first choice was. But it was a slap in the face when she was waitlisted rather than accepted. </p>
<p>I have another friend whose D has done the same thing this year in terms of following her own way for senior year instead of having a grind year. She did not get into any of her top choice schools and was deferred at a school that should have been a safety for EA. She is going there, as she was accepted RD, but this season was a real blow to her. I would not have guessed that the curriculum strength senior year would have counted so heavily against her, and a number of the schools were not the most selective. My kid got into some of them with much lower test scores, equivalent gpa, but with the hardest possible curriculum senior year which was the big difference academically. Yeah, he sucked it down though he is terrible at math and hates it and took the course. Took that 4th year of AP language that he despised, Loaded it up though he was very tired of it all, and worked his butt off. It paid off. My friend works at one of the universities that rejected her daughter, and did get feedback and yes they do look at the rigor of courses, and she did not pass muster with those delightful delicious courses that she took that she was so enjoying.</p>
<p>With OP’s D’s stats , she isn’t going to be shut out of colleges even if she decides to take a light senior load. But she should understand that it could compromise her chances for acceptance to the most selective school. Maybe it won’t, but yes, it could. If she understands this, then fine. I know a number of kids who made such decisions and were perfectly happy, delighted and excelled at those schools that accepted them, and sometimes got into the top schools nonetheless. But it is a risk.</p>
<p>She sounds like a great kid!</p>
<p>I don’t think that taking an honors English course because you find the content more interesting is in any way taking a “weak” curriculum, and a college that rejects her for it is the wrong college. It would be their loss. </p>
<p>Leave Princeton, Yale and Stanford for the future doctors, lawyers and Native-American chiefs if they won’t take her. </p>
<p>Send her to Oberlin, Johns Hopkins, Rochester, Rice or Lawrence. They all have conservatories within the school.</p>
<p>From your post, she’s signed up for many AP’s and she’s dropping one, not all of them. It doesn’t look like she’s trying to have an easy ride senior year to me.</p>
<p>So, short answer from me, dropping one AP, no problem. I wouldn’t want to go to the college that was that myopic. </p>
<p>That said, I think your DD is actually being incredibly mature to assess her quality of life and learning at this point. My DD won’t go to college for many years, and I’ve been lurking here and reading a combination of rapt attention and incredulity. I can’t believe the ivy fever here…I don’t get it. An ivy acceptance is a great validation. I would never deny that it’s a fantastic educational opportunity. But it is not some kind of magic ticket to a successful life. There are so many different paths, so many great institutions, and if you look at this site-so many incredibly accomplished kids out there! </p>
<p>I’ve worked in NYC book publishing for the past twenty years. I went to a small liberal arts college (St. Lawrence University–practically the mother of all safety schools!) and I’ve always had a passion for books. I’ve never felt like any doors were closed to me because I went to SLU. NYC book publishing is rife with Ivy degrees. Many of my friends graduated from elite institutions, but now…twenty years later…I think what matters most is quality of life and dare I say it…happiness. We’ve all achieved a good measure of success, most of us have made choices about our quality of life, and I don’t think my satisfaction is any less than that of my friends who were more driven in high school. We all came to our careers because we had a passion for books.</p>
<p>Unless it was really my child’s intention, I cannot imagine pushing them toward the stress of Harvard or Yale when there are so many other fabulous places where they could take the time to grow and sometimes fail. I am sure there are brilliant, well-rounded kids at Harvard and Yale, but there are also a lot of stressed-out kids stuck in the grind and afraid to take chances because of what it will do to their permanent record.</p>
<p>We allowed our S to choose his own path; he spent 11th grade in an exchange program in Italy that was focused on Classics which is his passion. He lost out on many “college resume building” opportunities at his stateside school as a result and this was a risk that he was willing to take. He had a rigorous senior year but it was not the MOST rigorous.He is a fiercely independent, highly intellectual kid with more interests than he can pursue in a lifetime. He had high enough grades and test scores to compete for top schools. His dream school was Yale followed by Brown but fate brought him to Dartmouth where he will be attending in the Fall. He had a couple of classmates whose parents pressed them into “the game” and while they were able to gain acceptances where my S could not, I cannot help but feel that his college experience is going to be richer because he has learned how to be true to himself, follow his passions and make the most of his opportunities. After months and months of researching and visiting colleges, examining programs of study and EC opportunities, I think that the colleges that were able to appreciate his quirks and accomplishments were also places where he would be the happiest and therefore, the most successful.</p>
<p>Your kid sounds very grounded and accomplished…she will do fine; one dropped Ap here or there will not stand in the way of an otherwise brilliant applicant. There are so many great schools that are looking for kids just like her…try not to worry!</p>
<p>As I stated before, I don’t think that dropping one AP is going to make a lick of difference when the rest of the schedule is rigorous. However, just because the admissions office of a school is so myopic that it might feel that way does not mean I wouldn’t like the school. You aren’t going to be dealing with Admissions once you get into a college. You just have to get past them to get in.</p>
<p>And even if it made a difference with this particular student, she looks like she has enough going for her that she would be a strong candidate for a number of excellent schools.</p>
<p>Also, I have found with my kids, that when they make up their minds on something like this, it isn’t always the best thing to push it. As they get older, forcing feeding is not going to go down or stay down well. I know my kids would have benefitted in a number of ways had they done some things I suggested, right down to choice of schools, but I don’t know if the resentment factor would not have overshadowed any “rightfulness” of my argument, so I let most of these things go after letting them know my opinion and letting them know the risks of what they are choosing.</p>
<p>Lennon- Don’t think that the only stressed students are at the highly selective schools. I know a lot of pre-med and engineering students at state schools who seemed a lot more stressed out all the way through college than my Ivy kid did. Of course, maybe it was because he was at a “lower Ivy”. :)</p>
<p>I know what your daughter is saying. For me admissions to the top colleges involves a level of maneuvering and game-playing that I just don’t have any patience for. Encourage your daughter to continue to march to her own drummer. When the time comes she should still apply to Stanford, because she may very well get in. She should also apply to some of the other wonderful institutions that other posters have suggested.</p>
<p>There is a benefit to her for taking this stand now, she gets the satisfaction of refusing to play any games. Even if she doesn’t get accepted to Stanford she’ll end up at a school that is right for her without having made any compromises.</p>
<p>Momofwildchild, there is absolutely stress everywhere. I do believe a certain amount of stress and tension is a good thing, and can challenge and invigorate you as a student or professional. But I also think that there are too many kids just following the path that their guidance counselors are pushing–and of course, it looks much better for any school, public or private if their students are attending Harvard over Reed. But that doesn’t make it the right place for the student. I think what really impressed me about this thread is that we get to hear about the OP’s daughter questioning the whole process, and really thinking about what kind of life she wants…not just where she wants to get in.</p>
<p>I think OP’s point is, at least in part, that her D doesn’t want to play the games required to get into an Ivy or other tippy-top the GC has in mind. Great. But, does she know what she does want? She shouldn’t focus on the “games” aspect, but should focus on understanding what her actual interests are and how to achieve them. </p>
<p>You have to shepherd her through this. No, that’s not always easy. Kids get sophomore slump. They get intimidated by the unknown. Sometimes they even fuss because challenging the status quo is part of growing up. </p>
<p>In general,* it’s fine to replace AP Lit with Honors English.<a href=“Lots%20of%20kids,%20btw,%20hate%20AP%20Lit-%20it’s%20not” title=“love of books.”>/i</a> At a rigorous hs, the chances her Honors class or classmates will be sub-par is very small. And, plenty of kids forego the AP Lit. Econ majors would sooner dig deeper into econ or govt than literature. A STEM kid is going to go in deeper in the math-sci direction if the courses are available. Many kids will take an extra year of language or an intro to a new lang. It’s fine. As long as the replacement has value- because sooner than you realize, an adcom is going to be trying to translate her choices into something that makes sense to THAT college, whatever it is.</p>
<p>There is no one set of tricks to get into your preferred colleges, whatever they are. One “choice” doesn’t slam your chances. But, make sure her eyes are open. You have to help her see her college possibilities, start to define her college direction and learn what the schools she likes expect of her hs record. </p>
<p>It’s ok for posters to say her independence is an asset- but remember: she is only a sophomore. She has much to learn before charting her own path through life.</p>
<p>“A kid who is not willing to play the game now may develop the habit of not following the norm when get into the real world. We all know the consequences of trying to “do the right thing”.”</p>
<p>There is a huge difference between not wanting to play the college admissions game and not following the moral rules of a society. She can take direction well, respects and is respected by, her teachers, and is considered a person of good character.</p>
<p>Lennon, she’ll be a junior, not a senior, so she can take other APs later. And as I said in my OP or somewhere, I don’t think she’s the type to go to an Ivy.</p>