<p>erlanger, That’s an awful lot of kids, 0.7x329 = 230 kids every year going to non-HYPSM colleges. Looks like they may do better for college if they stayed at their local high school where they will be placed in the top 20%.</p>
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<p>Wow Exie, the question is whether the students are choosing BC or it’s their only option. Would you send your D to BC instead of Harvard after BS after spending 200 grand?</p>
<p>^^You are right that in most case, BC may be the best option they have, which means to some it is the best cost/benifit. Regardless, Invent, you must know: 1. Schooling is only part of your long jorney of life, and one factor in your success and happiness in life. Obviously, HYP nowadays don’t take all their students from Andover or Exeter no matter how excellent they are, but your experience and what you have learned and get trained at this young age at a top BS will not be wasted. It’ll go with you for the rest of your life. Ultimately your success will depend on your abilities and character you have developed over time. Secondly, when you go to a prep school with a great reputation, your resume starts from your high school. With the right opportunities, it’ll help you, which would sort of counteract the effect of not going to the best college you would’ve in a local school. Don’t take my words for it as it may vary from individual to individual, but I am trying to help you see things through.</p>
<p>BC (you can put in your own top school name here), is a top school. It shouldn’t be thought of as less than any ivy. At the same time, I want to address the idea that just because one went to Exeter or Andover that somehow “destiny for greatness” is conferred upon you, simply for getting in and attending, and that you must be ivy or HYP bound and anything else is “less”. It doesn’t. </p>
<p>My son who goes to one of the prestigious bs’s often cited on this board, tells me all the time, he looks around at some of the kids around him and is in awe. At others, he’s questioning, how did s/he get in?</p>
<p>Even if someone was thought to have the “right stuff” and lots of potential, to get into a top boarding school such as A/E…and others, it doesn’t mean that they will continue to be motivated to be highly competitive at the time of college entrance. You can’t make these sweeping statements.</p>
<p>Andover: SAT Mean Scores (Class of 2009 through March 2009 (314 students))</p>
<p>Critical reading 686
Math 690
writing 686</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Documents/PhillipsAcademySchoolProfile2010-2011.pdf[/url]”>http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Documents/PhillipsAcademySchoolProfile2010-2011.pdf</a></p>
<p>Those SAT scores fall into the range of BC’s middle 50% of accepted students: [College</a> Search - Boston College - BC - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board).</p>
<p>The ACT mean score of Andover students who take the ACT (154 students in 2008-9) have a composite score of 29.5, which is on the lower end of BC’s middle 50% of accepted students who submitted ACTs (range, 29 - 32, but only 20% submitted ACTs).</p>
<p>I’m not a BC alum, but it’s silly to claim that an Andover education is only worthwhile if one subsequently matriculates at Harvard. </p>
<p>I am enough of a patterns geek to wonder if even a renowned boarding school can get a student into a college if his SAT scores are significantly below the college’s usual range. (Excepting the usual hooks, i.e., athletic superstars, development candidates, the children of politicians.)</p>
<p>@Periwinkle: I am trying to get what you are saying. So, assuming the average SAT scores in all the top schools are not significantly different (which is probably close to the truth), is it your understanding that any differences between top BS in number/percentage of gradutes getting into the top few highly competitive colleges are equal to the diffences in the headcounts of “special cases”? Even when one school is doing “better” than others significantly year after year? While I agree that college matriculation results in BS are at least partially explained by the quality of the students BS takes in, I am tired of attributing every difference to so-called “hooks”. </p>
<p>Secondly, suppose Andover students spend more time on SAT preparation and manage to increase their aveage SAT scores by 1 or 2 hundred pts, do you think that’d drastically change the results of their college matriculation? If so, I think that may be a most cost (time and money) effective thing to do. IMO, SAT scores as they stand currently have very little to do with the overall results of a prep school’s college admission results.</p>
<p>I know faculty, students, and grads at BC, and it’s truly an excellent place. While it attracts students internationally, it has a particular local pull that you might not appreciate if you are not from New England–lots of movers and shakers are BC grads. Also, the undergraduate experience there could be one of the best in the Boston area, especially if you are a sports fan.</p>
<p>Here’s a data point for Periwinkle. Last year (the only data I have), the mean total SAT score of an Andover student admitted to BC was 2142. I don’t know the mean of those who chose to go, but I think that shows that strong students are attracted to BC.</p>
<p>(I’m not an alum, and my kid isn’t applying there, but I wanted to reinforce the support for BC above!)</p>
<p>This is vintage lemonade. Do you know at least one thing that Andover can improve?</p>
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Otherwise known as un-known.</p>
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<p>Please name some shakers.</p>
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<p>Don’t draw conclusions from a handful of data points without full info/stats.</p>
<p><a href=“I’m%20not%20an%20alum,%20and%20my%20kid%20isn’t%20applying%20there,%20but%20I%20wanted%20to%20reinforce%20the%20support%20for%20BC%20above!”>quote</a>
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<p>It’s not good for my kid, but it’s great for everyone else.</p>
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I agree that key/more critical info is missing here. It’s not surprising that BC is on the apply-to list of many students considering half of the students are from MA, but it could be - for example - “safety” to some and “reach” to others. Hardly can this be used as evidence for “strong students are attracted to BC”. On the other hand, the fact that BC is one of the top destinations does show that possibly when there are comparable options BC is more likely to be selected, and the reason could be because of its location, gradutes’ emplyment prospect, or FA/scholarships, etc.</p>
<p>@DAndrew,</p>
<p>IMO, SAT scores as they stand currently have very little to do with the overall results of a prep school’s college admission results.</p>
<p>Why do you think that? What evidence do you have, other than your opinion, that SAT scores are meaningless for applicants from prep schools? No prep school publishes the correlation between SAT scores and college outcomes. I presume it’s part of Naviance, but when researching prep schools, you’re doing well if a school publishes current year matriculations. </p>
<p>Secondly, suppose Andover students spend more time on SAT preparation and manage to increase their aveage SAT scores by 1 or 2 hundred pts, do you think that’d drastically change the results of their college matriculation? If so, I think that may be a most cost (time and money) effective thing to do.</p>
<p>I know many parents believe SAT prep pays off. I’ve just never been able to find any research which confirms this belief. (If you have any links, I’d love to read it.) The most I’ve been able to find was an estimate of maybe 30 points on average, which must be very close to the possible score range for students. Of course, the people in the business of selling test prep want you to believe it’s amazingly effective. That’s their line of business.</p>
<p><<i know=“” many=“” parents=“” believe=“” sat=“” prep=“” pays=“” off.=“” i’ve=“” just=“” never=“” been=“” able=“” to=“” find=“” any=“” research=“” which=“” confirms=“” this=“” belief.=“”>></i></p><i know=“” many=“” parents=“” believe=“” sat=“” prep=“” pays=“” off.=“” i’ve=“” just=“” never=“” been=“” able=“” to=“” find=“” any=“” research=“” which=“” confirms=“” this=“” belief.=“”>
<p>I think the literature on this has to do with test-taking in general. It is widely published (I don’t have a link) that much of doing well on any particular test, has to do with familiarity and practice with any given test. Lots of public schools in MA for instance teach to the MCAS (required test) content and give practice tests in school.</p>
<p><<the people=“” in=“” the=“” business=“” of=“” selling=“” test=“” prep=“” want=“” you=“” to=“” believe=“” it’s=“” amazingly=“” effective.=“” that’s=“” their=“” line=“” business.=“”>.</the></p>
<p>Again, I think there is literature citing improvement with practice. Any given test has its own idiosyncracies including if one should guess or not. A test afterall is just a tool, and I
think there is widespread agreement (not just from marketers of high priced test prep companies), that you can increase your scores if you know the tricks of the trade of any particular standardized test.</p>
<p>If you believe that, it still doesn’t answer the question of whether college admission decisions would change if someone were to slightly increase their scores.</p>
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<p>Periwinkle, having some more thought on this subject, I think I might’ve taken something for granted, which is that if the prep schools and/or prep school kids know that if their SAT scores increase 100 pts they’d have a significant better chance for a better college, most - if not all - of them would be able to achieve the goal by devoting more time and other resources to the task. It is one of the few things that’s so straightforward in college application process - it’s one test, which can be taken multiple times, and quantifiable. I don’t know. I wish there were a survey of sort asking students about their awareness of SAT scores’ impact on their college outcome and how difficult it is to increase them.</p>
<p>DAndrew, the print edition of the Phillipian seems to run regular ads for SAT prep. I’m certain Andover students have heard of the SAT. </p>
<p>To be fair, (I assume) the higher the original score is, the harder it would be to improve the score.</p>
<p>Yeah, but that’s not the point. I have the impression that many students and even some college couselors think that once one reaches a certain threashold in SAT’s (e.g. 700 in each section), it doesn’t make much of a difference any more to have super high scores. And actually on this board and elsewhere, so many people are deemphasizing the importance of standardized tests (SATs as well as SSATs), and some of them talk about the “trend” of colleges not requiring SAT’s any more. If as you said, SAT is that important, then I think there’s definately a need for raising the awarness among students and teachers, from college counselors first.</p>
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<p>That’s absolutely true. I often get questions at in sessions with prospective freshman who come from environments where “top scores” dictate where you matriculate. People are surprised that students with perfect scores are routinely declined at MIT, for instance. Beyond a certain level, it’s moot and the Adcoms begin screening for other attributes in the portfolio that suggest a well-rounded, accomplished applicant.</p>
<p>Plus - the proliferation of “prep classes” or the emphasis in some high schools but not others, means the test scores are now viewed as skewed. Hence, scores get a cursory glance and even scores below the statistical mean for the school don’t knock out a candidate (or mean they have to be hooked to get in.) Trust me, I’ve seen the bell curve on scores of accepted students and it’s enlightening and life affirming.</p>
<p>All this angst on test scores confirms that parents and students are focused on the wrong benchmark and spending millions of dollars each year chasing something that may or may not make any difference.</p>
<p>Perfect scores are rejected every day in favor of imperfect scores and a more interesting applicant with skills and traits that are attractive to the Adcoms and the school. Schools are not obligated to take ANYONE based on stats. Schools choose who fits. The criterian is often surprising to those who prefer a more rigid (and numbers based) interpretation of the qualifications.</p>
<p>I love how no one will offer that maybe it is BC’s academics that are attractive to applicants instead of the usual “great location --Boston!”, “great sports!”, “beautiful campus!”</p>
<p>I suspect that all these appraisals come from outsiders…</p>
<p>The academics were tough even in my day, 40 years ago – and before that!</p>
<p>lenid, you may be right about BC’s academics, but I doubt it’s a common perception in Andover that BC is the one to choose if they are seeking further academic challenge.</p>
<p>Exie, so what do you think if Andover students improve their SAT scores by 150 Pts on average would the college admission results change significantly, assuming others thing unchanged?</p>
<p>RBGG,
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<p>Do you have a link to any published study? I know many parents believe test prep pays off. The best summary I can find, from the National Association for College Admission Counseling does credit test prep with a score increase–ranging from 15 to 30 points:</p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/PublicationsResources/Research/Documents/TestPrepDiscussionPaper.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nacacnet.org/PublicationsResources/Research/Documents/TestPrepDiscussionPaper.pdf</a></p>
<p>As far as I’m concerned, an increase of 30 points is not worth the time (and money) invested in test prep. The time could be put to better use.</p>
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<p>While I don’t think that scores are the be all and end all, Exeter’s scattergrams suggest to me that SAT scores may be more important than Exie implies here, though I think her overall analysis is right on. There definitely seems to be a range of acceptable scores and, as Exie points out, students with very high scores are rejected or waitlisted quite often. However, it’s also clear that the vast majority of admits to Ivies and the like have excellent (though not perfect) SAT’s.</p>
<p>Put another way, while stellar SAT scores and GPA are definitely not a guarantee of admission, there is a range of scores (a limited range for top schools) that is, with rare exception, a prerequisite for admission.</p>
<p>I may start another thread to deal with this, but I’d be interested to hear about students’ experiences with their schools’ college counseling team. Hopefully a few recent graduates could relate their stories? I’m particularly interested in how the schools guide students’ applications choices, and any assistance in deciding which tests (SAT vs ACT, SAT IIs, APs) a student should take. Also, it seems that schools are starting to increase focus on SAT IIs which didn’t exist until fairly recently. Am I correct, and have the college counseling teams been helpful?</p>