College people who can vote...

<p>leah377 -
"generally, ideas introduced with "no offense" are actually pretty offensive. yours is no exception."
No, its a statement on reality. Reality sometimes offends senstative individuals, because reality is many times offensive. No offense is a statement meaning it's not a personal statement, just how things are.</p>

<p>"i'd always thought empathy was a moral. guess i was wrong."
Clearly stated "that empathic". Empathy can get in the way of enforcing laws. When empathy interfers with running an efficient judicial system, I would rather have someone dedicated to the law, not humanity. Morals is another word for ETHICS, as in knowing the difference between right and wrong. Empathy is a FEELING. </p>

<p>hyperJulie -"The clause that states that someone born on US soil is a citizen is the same clause that makes you and I citizens."
Actually "The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the 14th Amendment,[2] although it has generally been assumed that they are", which shows that those born with 2 non citizen parents do not gain citizenship under the same legislation as a child born to parents who are US citizens. Article 1 of the 14th amendment was meant to give citizenship to slaves born in the US, not to those who were born here to non citizens. Look up the case of Elk v Wilkins. Read up on the 14th Amendment, its purpose, and SC rulings on the topic. The above quote of yours is COMPLETELY wrong.</p>

<p>"We can't take away people's right to citizenship, so thus overburdening the foster care system must be the answer, in your opinion. Is that worth getting rid of a population of illegal immigrants? Furthermore, what problems are these illegal immigrants causing for the average American? "
1) Non citizens do not have the same rights as Americans. We are not taking away anyones rights by clearly defining and upholding the intentions of the 14th Amendment. We are not take ANYONE's "right" to citizenship away, because the naturalization process would still exist. Once again, you can't take away someones "rights" if they are aliens. I have family in both Texas and California, and the problems caused by aliens are immense. They are somehow able to overflow our public school systems(many schools DON'T ask for greencards), forcing schools to hire teachers who are fluent in spanish. God forbid the aliens learn english. The overcrowding has effected my cousin. The schools are so crowded in her area by aliens that her school offers a program where kids pick up their work weekly and do it at home, because they simply do not have enough room.
Labor issues are clear- illegals make it difficult for blue collar workers to find work with contractors, because illegals do not recieve minium wage.
Aliens are committing crimes, not on the same level as other ethnic groups. My tax dollars pay for their stay.</p>

<p>"Reagan engaged in deficit spending all throughout his Presidency. He very significantly increased the national debt over the course of his administration. Also, why does it make any sense, when the middle and lower classes are struggling, to give money to the richest?"
Supply side economics. You're not "giving" money to the richest, you are giving them TAX BREAKS. Tax breaks for American companies allows them to hire more workers and invest in new technologies, and to survive in an increasingly large global reliance. It allows an American company, such as New Balance, to compete with Nike, and keep its labor for in the US.Reagan got rid of needless agencies, and used more bloack grants. Pushed powers back to the states. Reagan cut income taxes on the middle and low class.
reagan came in when there was a gas crisis, while we were in the cold war, and talks of a recession, and bolstered the economy. Supply side economics and de regulation helped cut unemployment from nearly 11% to about 3.5%
"Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years.
Interest rates, inflation, and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did immediately before or after his presidency."</p>

<p>colormehappy- "Justice Harry Blackmun, writing for the majority, argued that a woman's decision to end her pregnancy is protected by a broad right of privacy, which though not explicitly laid out in the Constitution, previously had been found by the court to exist within the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth and 14th Amendments, as well as the penumbras, or shadows, of the Bill of Rights."
5th no self incrimination, 4th Amendment right to privacy. I personally feel the 14th could be used to overturn Roe v Wade. The life, liberty property clause and equal protection could be argued to protect the fetus' "right to live". I view the privacy protection in 1, 4 and 5 more important in cementing the pro choice view.</p>

<p>"In 2004, the U.S. Census Bureau found that women earned only 75.5 cents for every dollar men earned. That seems like a pretty large discrepancy to me. Just because an issue doesn't directly affect me doesn't seem like a good reason not to care. We have to care because when issues do affect us, we expect others to care. "
Because every poll is 100% accurate(sarcasm)... I heard is was $.80 most recently. That poll was also cinducted 4 years ago, and is very close to being outdated. When did I say I DIDN'T care? It's just way down there on my list. Way way down. After the whole undeclared war in Iraq, Afghanistan, foriegn dependency on oil, economy, foriegn affairs, the UN, China stealing our "intellectual property", our way too stron alliance with Isreal, Immigration, education, cost of college, social security, re vising welfare requirements, ending hate crime legislation etc,. Equal pay effects a lot less people than the above issues. </p>

<p>"Maybe I am naive, but I don't see bitter cynicism as a better alternative. This is not the time for a "do nothing president." At the risk of being flamed again, I will stand by my assertion: this is the time for change."
Would it KILL obamanites to not use change or hope? It is better to have a guy in office to make slow, moderate changes than a radical, partisan divisive man when the economy is in a more fragile state. I am a realist. I understand no matter who is elected, things are not going to be perfect or even ideal for many. Change will occurr regardless of who is elected. If you are so desperate for change, do something yourself, don't rely on a politician. Write your national and state congressman, work on a campaign, start a movement, but do something instead of blaming people/ideas/establishments. The truth is in America, one person can make such a huge difference, and I have witnessed this myself, but for whatever reason people tend not to do something themselves.</p>

<p>Actually, Bush graduated from Yale.
BO just doesn't seem like a true unifier to me. Maybe if he didn't make racist remarks I would have a different opinion, or if he weren't so dishonest. Or if he actually wasn't corrupted. I just view him as another politician banking in on a message that seems appealing. Especially due to his ambition led motives which underscored his supposed "message". His time in Chi was actually a bit sketchy, especially his involvement with ACORN(a non profit I nearly worked for...so I know the type of shady practices they have been known for. Before the PA primary, they intentionally filed fraudulent voter registration forms. ACORN has become infamous for proving voting corrpution by creating it.). Also, the way he won his seat in Ill. is quite interesting if you never heard.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you are so desperate for change, do something yourself, don't rely on a politician. Write your national and state congressman, work on a campaign, start a movement, but do something instead of blaming people/ideas/establishments.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>... Or vote for someone who you believe will bring the change you want?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Maybe if he didn't make racist remarks I would have a different opinion, or if he weren't so dishonest. Or if he actually wasn't corrupted.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Reputable citations are a good thing to use if you want other people to take your points seriously. Rule of thumb: cite or it didn't happen. Nice lesson for anyone to learn.</p>

<p>"Or vote for someone who you believe will bring the change you want?"
Over reliance on government and politicians is a great indicator of an apathetic populace. So you don't think people should try and initiate change? Trust me, it is more effect to do something yourself than to rely on government.
Here's a real example:
In gov class senior year, several peers and I enetered the civics fair. The projects were based on a variety of topics, ours happened to be voting elgibility for the primary. Started small, ended up HUGE. Started will a petition and a civics fair competition, ended with our class meeting with our state senators and representatives, getting on the news, being interviewed in papers, and attending a meeting in Philly about legislation to allow those 18 ofor general election to vote for primary. Guess what? Legislation is now being written. It's PA bill 520. That has made much more of a difference than relying solely on our state politicians.
it was more effective than us sitting on the couch waiting. I can not belief you have the audacity to say people should do nothing, and instead just hope the person they voted for gets elected and keeps their promises.
"Be the change you wish to see in the world."</p>

<p>"Reputable citations are a good thing to use if you want other people to take your points seriously. Rule of thumb: cite or it didn't happen. Nice lesson for anyone to learn."
Made them in past posts, go back a page or two. Way to be ignorant.
Since I am sure you are too lazy to go back and read them, and will instead rely on me reposting:</p>

<h2>"The point I was making was not that Grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn't. But she is a typical white person"</h2>

<p>"That hate hadn't gone away"...."white people — some cruel, some ignorant, sometimes a single face, sometimes just a faceless image of a system claiming power over our lives." Barack Hussein Obama from Dreams Of My Father</p>

<p>"There were enough of us on campus to constitute a tribe, and when it came to hanging out, many of us chose to function like a tribe, staying close together, traveling in packs. . . It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names" Barack Hussein Obama from Dreams of My Father(wow he is such a unifier)</p>

<p>"I found solice in nursing a pervasive sense of grievancee and animosity against my mother's race" Barack Hussein Obama from Dreams of My Father</p>

<p>"I CEASED TO ADVERISE MY MOTHER'S RACE AT THE AGE OF12 OR 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites""</p>

<p>From 'Dreams of my Father', "The emotion between the races could never be pure..... the THE OTHER RACE (WHITE) WOULD ALWAYS REMAIN JUST THAT: MENACING, ALIEN AND APART"</p>

<p>Dishonesty:
Originally stated he WOULD accept public funds for general election. Recently decided he WOULD NOT accept public funds.
Put out an add which stated he NEVER accepted money from oil companies/lobbyist, which is a lie(don't know if the add was only aired in PA for the big PA primary). Google obama accepts money from lobbyist. I can't open multiple windows.
Claimed he was a "Selma child", but was born 4 years after the event.
Claimed he went to a Christian school in Indonisia, but it was really a muslim school(in his own book).
Said he WOULD NOT RUN for president in 2008, saying he would not have the necassary experiance.
Claimed no one from his campaign talked to Canada about NAFTA, yet Canada released a memo and names.
Said he would NOT campaign in FL, but still ran ads during primary season.</p>

<p>"“I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois."</p>

<p>His quotes can be found in his own books.
Here's a list of sites which list a laudray list of lies, as well as pages where quotes/facts are:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp"&gt;http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><www.freedomsenemies.com _obama="" obamalies.htm=""></www.freedomsenemies.com&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-game-for-democrats-who-can-tell.html"&gt;http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-game-for-democrats-who-can-tell.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/fashion-shows/"&gt;http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/fashion-shows/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/03/30/more-obama-lies-the-media-will-ignore/"&gt;http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/03/30/more-obama-lies-the-media-will-ignore/&lt;/a> (look at Washington fact check section)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/09/pacs_and_lobbyists_aided_obamas_rise/"&gt;http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/09/pacs_and_lobbyists_aided_obamas_rise/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_oil_spill.html"&gt;http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_oil_spill.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/15/mccain-slams-obama-over-p_n_86965.html"&gt;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/15/mccain-slams-obama-over-p_n_86965.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1992602/posts"&gt;http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1992602/posts&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.barackobama.com/2007/03/04/selma_voting_rights_march_comm.php"&gt;http://www.barackobama.com/2007/03/04/selma_voting_rights_march_comm.php&lt;/a> read oart where BO says his parents got together and he was born part. Selma happened in 61, BO born in 64</p>

<p><a href="http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=3765"&gt;http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=3765&lt;/a> lies about association w/rezko</p>

<p><a href="http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/25/obama-2004-nah-i-cant-run-for-president-in-2008/"&gt;http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/25/obama-2004-nah-i-cant-run-for-president-in-2008/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Change</a> of Subject - Observations, reports, tips, referrals and tirades | Chicago Tribune | Blog</p>

<p>Senate</a> Checks for Free</p>

<p>Yes, we all know how he got the other three taken off the ballot so that he could run uncontested in the IL senate. He did what any smart person would do. They didn't do their homework. He and his HLaw review buddy did.</p>

<p>Do you realize? It's funny how we as a society have somehow managed to paint conservatism as a whole -- into a very small corner with the brand of bigotry and racism stamped onto its forehead. The current administration has helped with that, the media, other things... I'm sure you realize that it's an irrational way of thinking that does nothing but divide.</p>

<p>The amusing thing is tiff, you've done the exact same thing. When you read the bible? Do you read the message? Or do you quote lines and dispute them individually? If I was to debate every christian over every point in the bible? How could I lose? How could anyone lose? That's pure stupidity though. I mean you no offense, but you can not snipe lines and construct an image based purely on those lines when his message is obviously not in sync with the picture you're painting.</p>

<p>It's the same way others use their crooked easels to form images of a singular conservative mantra bound in the chains of big business + racism and gun-toting idiots.</p>

<p>Tiff, you're better than that.</p>

<p>
[quote]

The life, liberty property clause and equal protection could be argued to protect the fetus' "right to live".

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In his 60 Minutes interview, Justice Antonin Scalia expressed disdain at this type of reasoning. Applying the equal protection clause this way means counting pregnant women as two people instead of one. More seriously, as an originalist, Justice Scalia stated that the meaning of the equal protection clause at the time it was written clearly refers to people who are walking around, not fetuses.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Over reliance on government and politicians is a great indicator of an apathetic populace. So you don't think people should try and initiate change?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I fail to see how investing hope in our political process is a sign of apathy. This may be the first time in my life I have been urged not to care about the candidates and the issues. And whoever said I wasn't initiating change in other ways? I'm a big supporter of the environment. I recycle, I try to reduce my water and electricity consumption, I try to drive less. I also am strongly anti-war. I've attended peace rallies in the capital. I think keeping oneself informed and abreast of the issues is active. Knowledge is power.</p>

<p>I don't think you can call Obama racist because of quotes taken from the context of his book. You're trying to evaluate his character based on individual thoughts and feelings he had at different times in his life. Is it really so hard to understand why he would feel isolated and confused and seek solace with people who looked like him? Is it so hard to understand why he might resent the people who treat him differently, whether intentionally or not? These feelings and struggles helped shape him into the man he is. He is not a racist. Having dealt with race conflicts so personally, he has a better understanding of how pervasive this problem is and how ignorance is not the solution.</p>

<p>As for Obama's so called "lies," I couldn't care less. Politicians are flamed for inconsequential changes and events in their personal lives. Did we really impeach President Clinton for his sex life? Seriously? We care more about a politician's lies to his wife and his actions between the sheets than we do about his boldface lies to the country and his destructive actions overseas. Rather than wasting our time focusing on every little "flip-flop," maybe we should pay attention to the blatant lies that are actively changing the world. </p>

<p>Fetuses are not the same as women. Embryos? That's an even further stretch. So maybe overturning Roe v. Wade would preserve the existence of some clusters of cells and bring more children into the foster care system, but it would also bring many women to financial ruin and cause many deaths. Can you say coat hanger? I can make the distinction between an independent woman and a little blob of genetic information. The don't get the same protection.</p>

<p>Bourne-
I am not racist, and many major media outlets are liberal biased. I have yet to come across a media outlet that is in no way biased. </p>

<p>"The amusing thing is tiff, you've done the exact same thing. When you read the bible? Do you read the message? Or do you quote lines and dispute them individually? If I was to debate every christian over every point in the bible? How could I lose? How could anyone lose? That's pure stupidity though. I mean you no offense, but you can not snipe lines and construct an image based purely on those lines when his message is obviously not in sync with the picture you're painting."</p>

<p>I have never read past the first page of the Bible. I have never gone to church. I agree with Allen Ginsberg's take on spirituality, and much of what Buddhist believes.
Your statement is a bit more like a rant. BO's actions do not always support his message. He can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk(sorry, I really hat cliches). I am not painting a picture, I am pointing out facts which contradict his supposed message. many who support BO just don't want to accept that some of his words and actions are completely inconsitent with his speeches. </p>

<p>"It's the same way others use their crooked easels to form images of a singular conservative mantra bound in the chains of big business + racism and gun-toting idiots."
I am actually a complete moderate, registering Libertarian. The Republicans are not longer a party of true conservatism. Just looka t how Bush has expanded government compared to someone like Regean. Conservative do not support military conflicts, and are much more of isolationists than the current administration.
See, I actually disagree with the Heller v DC decision, and am anything but a gun rights supporter, so those assumptions are far fetched and inaccurate.</p>

<p>CMH-
"I'm a big supporter of the environment. I recycle, I try to reduce my water and electricity consumption, I try to drive less. I also am strongly anti-war. I've attended peace rallies in the capital. I think keeping oneself informed and abreast of the issues is active. Knowledge is power."
Didn't you say Or....vote for someone who will bring change? What were you trying to say with that statement, because it really sounded like "let someone else do it"</p>

<p>"I also am strongly anti-war"
Good, because we are not at war. If you are referring to the UNDECLARED wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, be more specific. You should advocate that congress enforces the War Powers Act, which sole purpose was to prevent another Viertnam- undeclared war which dragged on- and the Iraq/Afghanistan has some similiarities.</p>

<p>"I don't think you can call Obama racist because of quotes taken from the context of his book. You're trying to evaluate his character based on individual thoughts and feelings he had at different times in his life. Is it really so hard to understand why he would feel isolated and confused and seek solace with people who looked like him?"
Yes, I am like Colbert, I do not see race. None of my friends look like me, either. I hang out with people of different races/ethnicities, but I guess that's not too common anymore.
"Is it so hard to understand why he might resent the people who treat him differently, whether intentionally or not? These feelings and struggles helped shape him into the man he is. He is not a racist. Having dealt with race conflicts so personally, he has a better understanding of how pervasive this problem is and how ignorance is not the solution."
I read his book. Slightly worse than "The Scarlet Letter". And I emphasis slightly. I just saw a person who used racial identity as an excuse for his behaviors and struggles. When I go into Southside or downtown pgh, I understand that people are prejudice, and that's life. You know why people are prejiduce(in areas of PGH)?
There are some harsh feelings about the AA population due to the whole busing situation. My uncle and mother experianced some horrible things and were constantly beat up by the AA students, beause they wouldn't give them "milk money" or their shoes.
It's not for some unexplained reason, or just because they are black, there are real reasons. Our city schools still have these problems, and so many whites either move to suburbia or send their kids to private, catholic schools, so they don't have the same experiances, as was the case with me.
So its hard to believe if BO ecperianced true racism how he would not, in turn, harbor such feelings today(Trinity 20, J Wright friends, victimization preaching, racist statement demonstrate he has never overcome his racist feelings)
I guess the way to overcome racial barriars is to call your racist grandmother a typical white person. I guess that makes BO a typical haf black, half white person, and Jeremiah Wright the typical black person.
Oh, forgot to add that he called people like me(live right next to rural area, people still farm, go to suburban school in PA) "bitter" and "gun clingers."</p>

<p>"As for Obama's so called "lies," I couldn't care less. Politicians are flamed for inconsequential changes and events in their personal lives. Did we really impeach President Clinton for his sex life? Seriously? We care more about a politician's lies to his wife and his actions between the sheets than we do about his boldface lies to the country and his destructive actions overseas. Rather than wasting our time focusing on every little "flip-flop," maybe we should pay attention to the blatant lies that are actively changing the world."</p>

<p>So do you care about Bush's lies? I mean, who really cares that he lied about the motives of invading Afghanistan and Iraq, right? No big deal, just a lie. His mind changed a couple of times, happens to everyone.
The Clinton impeachment was due to him LYING to congress. He was impeached for PERJURY, and as exemplified by the threebranch struggle today w/Bush, congress HATES being lied to.
BO's lies are quite BLATANT. I mean, no way they could possibly be indicitive of his actions if elected, right? I am sure he only lies when he campaigns, not possibly if he is in office.
If the guy is lying about stupid things now, how do you think he will act in office? I view it as a character flaw and a serious concern, especially after how shady Bush has been.</p>

<p>"Fetuses are not the same as women. Embryos? That's an even further stretch. So maybe overturning Roe v. Wade would preserve the existence of some clusters of cells and bring more children into the foster care system, but it would also bring many women to financial ruin and cause many deaths. Can you say coat hanger? I can make the distinction between an independent woman and a little blob of genetic information. The don't get the same protection."
I never expressed my opinion of when fetuses gain the potential for life. But I was portraying the common argument for pro lifers.
Do you know WHY people aren't adopting American children, and the foster system is so overburdened? (My mothers friend adopted a child a few years ago)
1) The cost of a child is higher in the US than in other countries.
2) Laws allow the paternal mother to re gain custody of their child, even if the child has been adopted.
People don't want the risk of complete heartbreak of potentially having their child taken away.
I really don't think that many people would give their kids away. I would bet their parents(if they were caring individuals) would help them raise the child. Also, I think more people would be selling their babies directly to prospective parents, which is a pretty substantial amount of money.
Please, if it were overturned, I guerentee you could get abortions from doctors in a "black market"(that would be a booming industry), or, GASP, people might be a bit more responsible! It's not like there are not enough forms of BC available, short term and long term. I think you can get a day after at Walgreens now? The point is, too many people are getting abortions because they are irresponsible and can't use a condom. Or the pill. Or those inserts in the vag. Or the day after. No excuses for such stupidity in those who know about protection.</p>

<p>fabrizio-Interesting. I never felt the 14th meant protection for fetuses, it was meant for slave(not aliens), but I could see a pro lifer using that argument.
I wonder why they can then charge you with 2 counts of murder if the woman is pregnat? I would guess they have to be at a certain tri mester.</p>

<p>
[quote]

fabrizio-Interesting. I never felt the 14th meant protection for fetuses, it was meant for slave(not aliens), but I could see a pro lifer using that argument.
I wonder why they can then charge you with 2 counts of murder if the woman is pregnat? I would guess they have to be at a certain tri mester.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I’m not sure about murder, but regarding equal protection of the laws, there has not been a single Supreme Court Justice who has taken the view that an unborn child counts as the “person” described in the Fourteenth Amendment. [url= <a href="http://www.pewsitter.com/view_news_id_8810.php%5DSource%5B/url"&gt;http://www.pewsitter.com/view_news_id_8810.php]Source[/url&lt;/a&gt;]. Pro-lifers definitely use this argument. Justice Scalia simply states that they’re wrong from a legal standpoint. The source I linked was written by a conservative Catholic. He wrote that Scalia’s denouncement of this common pro-life argument was “heretical.” His justification? Catholic doctrine…</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have never read past the first page of the Bible. I have never gone to church. I agree with Allen Ginsberg's take on spirituality, and much of what Buddhist believes.</p>

<p>Your statement is a bit more like a rant. BO's actions do not always support his message. He can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk(sorry, I really hat cliches). I am not painting a picture, I am pointing out facts which contradict his supposed message. many who support BO just don't want to accept that some of his words and actions are completely inconsitent with his speeches.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I never said you've read the bible. I just said that you've made very silly generalizations based on a few snippets of an entire message. Because some parts of the constitution seem rather iffy, does that mean that the constitution is tainted as a whole? No.</p>

<p>That's what you're doing with BO's image. I can look at all of stupid things you've probably said in the past -- and agree that you're an idiot -- or I can try to understand your entire message -- refusing to succumb to the temptation of pointing out the few things that differ.</p>

<p>"That's what you're doing with BO's image. I can look at all of stupid things you've probably said in the past -- and agree that you're an idiot -- or I can try to understand your entire message -- refusing to succumb to the temptation of pointing out the few things that differ."</p>

<p>Actually, I am looking at how he has contradicted his own message, multiple times, which, at least for me, casts doubts on how genuine he really is. I am also judging him based on his record(which just so happens to contradict his stances) and his associations(William Ayers, Rezko, Wright). Actions are more important than campaign speeches or campaign platforms, as they are cemented in time, definitive moments, facts. I choose not to overlook such obvious flaws and inconsistencies in a man who could potentially lead our country, especially after these past 8 years. His lies should not be ignored, but rather looked at as an indicator of his true character.
There is more to a man than just words, more than just speeches.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Didn't you say Or....vote for someone who will bring change? What were you trying to say with that statement, because it really sounded like "let someone else do it"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No. I actually didn't say that. But I certainly agree that voting for someone who will bring change is a valid way to change the world. I can't run for president. I'm too young. I can't do it myself, but I can exercise my right to vote and choose the person who I think can bring the change I want in the government.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Good, because we are not at war. If you are referring to the UNDECLARED wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, be more specific. You should advocate that congress enforces the War Powers Act, which sole purpose was to prevent another Viertnam- undeclared war which dragged on- and the Iraq/Afghanistan has some similiarities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Jesus. I don't care if the war is declared or undeclared. It doesn't change the fact that we have sent our men and women into these areas repeatedly. We have bombed these countries and we are using military tactics. We are killing Iraqi and Afghani citizens and are, in turn, having our soldiers and civilians killed. I don't believe sticking an official label on the situation will change anything. I want our forces out. I certainly do not advocate Congress using the War Powers Act. The way to prevent another Vietnam would be to not invade other countries. I almost wish they would reinstitute the draft only so the American public would be so outraged that the government would have to withdraw troops immediately. This would obviously be a terrible solution since it would result in many more deaths. I will settle for Obama's plan of a concrete timeline for withdrawal. This is another Vietnam already. History has repeated itself. We have the opportunity to stop it from going any further and to, in the future, lay off the testosterone and keep it in our pants.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So do you care about Bush's lies? I mean, who really cares that he lied about the motives of invading Afghanistan and Iraq, right? No big deal, just a lie. His mind changed a couple of times, happens to everyone.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Note my original statement:

[quote]
Politicians are flamed for inconsequential changes and events in their personal lives.

[/quote]

I would certainly note categorize invading a country under false pretenses as an "inconsequential change" or a personal lie. The Bush administration deceived Congress and the American public with devastating results. Whether it was intentional or not, there is a death toll attached to Bush's claims about WMD's. Obama hasn't killed anyone by changing his campaign finance policy. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I guerentee you could get abortions from doctors in a "black market"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree that this would happen as well. That's what terrifies me. Women would be exposed to infection from unsterilized equipment and the obvious implications of substandard medical practices. Black market abortions existed before Roe v. Wade. They killed. Read this, if you have the stomach.</p>

<p>The</a> New York Times > Log In</p>

<p>ETA: Oops. You might have to log in to read this. Google it. "Repairing the Damage, Before Roe"</p>

<p>CMH-
That vote statement was directed at kelseyg, not you/be active/not sit on your ass stuff.</p>

<p>"Jesus. I don't care if the war is declared or undeclared. It doesn't change the fact that we have sent our men and women into these areas repeatedly. We have bombed these countries and we are using military tactics. We are killing Iraqi and Afghani citizens and are, in turn, having our soldiers and civilians killed. I don't believe sticking an official label on the situation will change anything. I want our forces out. I certainly do not advocate Congress using the War Powers Act. The way to prevent another Vietnam would be to not invade other countries. I almost wish they would reinstitute the draft only so the American public would be so outraged that the government would have to withdraw troops immediately. This would obviously be a terrible solution since it would result in many more deaths. I will settle for Obama's plan of a concrete timeline for withdrawal. This is another Vietnam already. History has repeated itself. We have the opportunity to stop it from going any further and to, in the future, lay off the testosterone and keep it in our pants."</p>

<p>Do you not understand that enforcing the War Powers Act would have ended the Iraq/Afghan conflicts after 120 days? It could end the conflicts quickly if they would unite and enforce the Act. It's too late to say we shouldn't enforce it because we shouldn't be there. We are there, and we need to deal with it NOW. I would feel more obliged to "bring the troops home" if it were like Nam and they were drafted, but we have a volunteery military. My cousin is Afghanistan, and he and his comrads want to finish the job, so to speek.</p>

<p>"I almost wish they would reinstitute the draft only so the American public would be so outraged that the government would have to withdraw troops immediately. This would obviously be a terrible solution since it would result in many more deaths. I will settle for Obama's plan of a concrete timeline for withdrawal. This is another Vietnam already. History has repeated itself. We have the opportunity to stop it from going any further and to, in the future, lay off the testosterone and keep it in our pants"</p>

<p>I hope you know BO said he will re deploy troops after withdrawl if necassary. BO is NOT committed to permenatly withdrawling the troops. This is in no way another Vietnam. The casualty rates in Vietnam are not even close to the casualty rates of Afghan/Iraq the past 6 years. Vietnam was not instigated by a terrorist attack against American civilians. Vietnam had a draft. Vietnam caused unbelievable outroar in the US, which resualted in huge levels of protests, throughout the ENTIRE conflict. Vietnam was a "poor man's fight" because of the college execption to the draft.
How do you honestly think the American people would have reacted if the government did NOTHING in response to 9/11? 3,000 innocent Americans died, and people were ****ed. If the US did not respond, it would make us a joke in the international community, give the terrorsit a sense of superiority and would anger the American people. Going into Afghanistan was supported by the majority of Americans, and has shown many improvements.</p>

<p>Do you think BO will only be dishonest during the campaign? If he is lying now about policy stances, how will he act in office? I feel his dishonesty during the campaign shows he is no different than any other politician. So is lying only wrong when you deem that lie unimportant or minor? A lie is a lie, period.</p>

<p>"I almost wish they would reinstitute the draft only so the American public would be so outraged that the government would have to withdraw troops immediately"</p>

<p>That is quite cynical and appalling. If that were, theoretically, to happen, they would only immediatly end the draft. The gov would not immediatley withdrawl, but any politican who voted for the draft would most likely lose their seat by the next election.
If, like in Nam, the gov wouldn't draft college kids, we'd probably see a unprecidented number of people in college, but I would bet there would be a disproportiante number of poor people and blacks drafted, just like nam. Women would be draft elgible as well, surely.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I almost wish they would reinstitute the draft only so the American public would be so outraged that the government would have to withdraw troops immediately

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I absolutely agree! If legislators were made to send their own children to fight as opposed to America's poor, the war would END.</p>

<p>Re: Post 214</p>

<p>As Perikles said, "For a man's counsel cannot have equal weight or worth, when he alone has no children to risk in the general danger."</p>

<p>Funeral</a> Oration</p>

<p>If the old draft system was used, it's easy for you to say reinstitute the draft, because women weren't drafted, and for the most part, neither were college students! Plenty of amazing men and women are volunteering to fight, and there is no need for a draft, especially the way technology is used in the military. It's easy to make a wish like that when you know you won't be affected.
To not even see how wrong those statements are is the worst part.
We should be proud of all those overseas, fighting for us. They are so incrediably unselfish, putting their lives at risk for a higher purpose. My cousin Ben is in afghanistan right now, because he believes that we are doing the right thing, and he is risking his life everyday for that belief.
And to think a draft would just end our military engagements is again flawed thinking. How long was there a draft during Nam? And the oppostion in the US for nam was extremely high. Re instituting the draft won't end it, and to WISH that more Americans would be put in harms way, just so more people would agree with is cynical, wrong and sick. </p>

<p>"I absolutely agree! If legislators were made to send their own children to fight as opposed to America's poor, the war would END. "</p>

<p>I can't believe you would wish harm on others just so more people would agree with you! </p>

<p>MCCAINS SON SERVED IN IRAQ, and McCain supports staying until we finish the job. Duncan Hunter's son has done several tours. Tod Akins son served in Iraq. Other congressman with sons who are/have served in Iraq or Afghanistan:
Ike Skelton
Marilyn Musgrave
Jim Saxton(Dem)
Joseph Biden (son in nat'l gaurd)
John Kline
James Webb
Joe Wilson (3 sons in military, 1 served, 1 in navy, 1 in nat'l gaurd)
Christopher Bond
John Ashcroft(former senator/AG)
Tim Johnson(Dem)
Mayor Daley's (of Chicago)</p>

<p>There's 13 congressman, 1 mayor, and 16 brave and couragous men.</p>

<p>A higher percentage of Congressman/politicans sons are serving than civilians!</p>

<p>Politician's</a> sons serving in the Afghanistan or Iraq Wars. (Bush, McCain, Congress) - Politics and Other Controversies - City-Data Forum</p>

<p>I said almost. The point I was trying to make was that the outrage and activism of people, mostly our age, during Vietnam had a great influence on the government bringing back the troops. </p>

<p>We are already seeing a disproportionate amount of "poor" people in Iraq. Most people who can afford college are going to college, not overseas. Many of the people who signed up for the National Guard to make a little money and support the country have been sent to Iraq multiple times. They didn't volunteer for this. </p>

<p>Women couldn't realistically be drafted. They could just go get pregnant. You couldn't send a pregnant woman to Iraq. </p>

<p>A draft in general wouldn't be realistic these days. I didn't say I thought the government should reinstitute the draft. I was just describing the effects such an action could have, which would increase the rate of withdrawal.</p>

<p>And there is a difference between supporting our soldiers as people and supporting the actions of the military in general. I wouldn't wish harm on any man or woman. I'm sick of this argument being used against people who don't support the war. </p>

<p>America had plenty of options besides retaliation in regards to 9/11. I think we would have appeared stronger if we didn't allow the terrorists to inspire such a hostile and immediate reaction. They got exactly what they wanted. We let them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
They didn't volunteer for this.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So people who volunteered for the armed forces didn't do it with the understanding that they might be sent to war? Are you serious? :rolleyes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
America had plenty of options besides retaliation in regards to 9/11. I think we would have appeared stronger if we didn't allow the terrorists to inspire such a hostile and immediate reaction. They got exactly what they wanted. We let them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think we would have appeared weak if we allowed ourselves to suffer such a terrible attack without a response. And I bet that what they wanted was the exact opposite of what we did - we sure as hell didn't do much after the 1993 bombing.</p>

<p>"I said almost. The point I was trying to make was that the outrage and activism of people, mostly our age, during Vietnam had a great influence on the government bringing back the troops."
Than next time you should say "the activism during Nam is no where near the level of outrage among the youth today with Iraq", so make a statement that sounds as if you wish harm on others just so more people will agree with you.</p>

<p>"We are already seeing a disproportionate amount of "poor" people in Iraq. Most people who can afford college are going to college, not overseas. Many of the people who signed up for the National Guard to make a little money and support the country have been sent to Iraq multiple times. They didn't volunteer for this. "</p>

<p>You do know that when you sign up for the reserves, those who enlist are told that they may be sent to active duty if necassary. It's in the contract. They knew what could happen, and yet the volunteerily signed up. Many people who could have gone t college choose to serve, for various reasons. My cousin had a six figure college fund, but instead signed up for the marines. </p>

<p>"Women couldn't realistically be drafted. They could just go get pregnant. You couldn't send a pregnant woman to Iraq. "
I thought you were big on equal rights. If a man can fight, whose to say a women couldn't? You are soooooo wrong. There are many brave and couragous women in Iraq and Afghanistan. </p>

<p>"A draft in general wouldn't be realistic these days. I didn't say I thought the government should reinstitute the draft. I was just describing the effects such an action could have, which would increase the rate of withdrawal."
Instituing the draft for nam didn't spead up withdrawl. </p>

<p>"America had plenty of options besides retaliation in regards to 9/11. I think we would have appeared stronger if we didn't allow the terrorists to inspire such a hostile and immediate reaction. They got exactly what they wanted. We let them."
Yes, doing nothing when terrorists from a 3rd world country attack one of the greatest and most industrialized countries of the world would have made us look sooooo much stronger(sarcasm). I am sur ethe terrorists are thrilled that we have captured and killed so many. I am sure the accused in Gitmo are so happy. I am sure they are thrilled we are setting of a democratic government, allowing real elections, giving women more rights and educating both boys and girls.
There are times when we must respond with more than diplomacy.
Did the holocaust warrant the US involvement in WW2(obviously not as we turned away countless Jews attempting to escape)? What about Pearl Harbor? I don't think it would have been effective to just talk to Hitler, or the Japanese, and say
"Hey man, can't we just all get along? Hitler, can you maybe stop trying to take over the world and sending millions to concentration camps?"
"No"
"OK then, we don't want to retaliate, because war is wrong. Good luck with that..."</p>

<p>What do you think we should have done after jihadist murdered 3,000 innocent Americans?</p>