<p>For example, for his transfer due to Tulane's phaseout of several Engineering programs, S was accepted to Vanderbilt. He then wouldn't even consider it due to word on the street that it was "full of preppy, frat boy" types (that is the cleaned up version). No amount of my attempting to de-bunk this stereotype would phase him. Even when I repeated to him some of the stereotypes of Tulane and Lehigh, which he knows first-hand not to be accurate, he would not be swayed. He will now be attending JHU (let's hope he doesn't hear too many stereotypes about <em>that</em> school in the next few weeks), but I continue to be bothered.</p>
<p>On another thread here in the Parents Forum, parents are describing certain schools as "country club atmosphere", full of "wealthy Boston types", "populated by Gold Coast" kids carrying "daddy's Platinum Visa."</p>
<p>Everyone is entitled to an opinion, obviously, and has the right to share that opinion. However, I think that the dissemination of these catchy phrases with the denigrating undertones does a terrible disservice not only to the schools but * to our kids and others' kids as they attempt to make an honest choice of the best school to attend*.</p>
<p>I'm sure that there are preppy frat boys at Vanderbilt. I'm sure that certain New England schools have some wealthy Boston types in attendance. But, frankly, I have visited each and everyone of the schools whose stereotypes are described here and I never found a pervasive atmosphere befitting the stereotype.</p>
<p>So, I guess this is my inquiry as to whether others have this concern, as well as my personal plea that we here in the Parent Forum restrict ourselves to reporting what we really know about a school. And know based on some depth of acquaintance with it.</p>
<p>"So, I guess this is my inquiry as to whether others have this concern, as well as my personal plea that we here in the Parent Forum restrict ourselves to reporting what we really know about a school. And know based on some depth of acquaintance with it."</p>
<p>jmmom:
I also have had this concern for a long time on this board. There are some regular posters who have written long dissertations about the negative aspects of certain schools (or certain types of schools) based on "what they heard", a "gut feeling", what they read in some review book, or what they observed in a half hour college tour, or simply an unsubstantiated personal opinion. Such comments are not really helpful to prospective students at all.</p>
<p>**************.com has guides written by students themselves; we've picked up a few for the colleges D is looking at (unfortunately, they don't have the guides for a lot of the smaller colleges).</p>
<p>We've only visited two schools so far, and the guides seemed to be fairly accurate at describing the feel on the campuses. They also include sections on stuff the kids care about: food, dorms, nightlife, party scene, the "hotness" of the student body.</p>
<p>Being a Left Coastie from a large public school, I was pleasantly surprised at the stereotypes I personally shattered as we looked at a couple of schools in PA which might be considered "Abercrombie and Fitch" "preppy Westchester tennis set", etc. I just didn't get that feel at all, and I went into the whole thing almost expecting to. My goal was to get a gut feel for the campuses and imagine my D walking through them, and in both cases I felt she would fit in.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, we've also ruled out a couple of schools based on the books we've read, NOT because of the quality of education at the particular schools (both top midwest U's, incredible sounding schools) but because they just didn't feel like a "fit" for D. Maybe we're doing both us and them a disservice by relying so much on guide books and not checking them out in person, but it did save me a chunk of airfare. :)</p>
<p>Oooh, as I previewed this post, I notice it blanked out the website I was referring to (I have no affiliation with them whatsoever). But given the savvy of the posters/readers on this forum, you'll know who I mean.</p>
<p>I think it is a disservice, Erin's Mom, just as you say, to rule out a school based on what the guide books say. But you can only visit a certain number of schools. </p>
<p>Remember, that while <em>that</em> site's guidebook uses items "written by the students themselves," it is a very self-selecting process. These student reviews are not based on a random sample but by those who choose to respond. And the selection of comments to publish is designed by the review editors to sell the guidebook.</p>
<p>I'd say that if the "hard data" on a certain school really, really makes it seem a fit, then it would be important to ignore the "reviews". This is what was so galling to me re Vanderbilt stereotypes - that school fit my S as to his chosen field, size, urban location with a music scene, warm climate and a location that would allow him to visit his beloved New Orleans and his dear Tulane friends. To me, it was one of the two best-fit schools for him. But no dice due to the grapevine.</p>
<p>But that is exactly my point, musictoad. The "germ" of truth is presented by the stereotype to be pervasively characteristic of a school. It serves, too often, to prevent students/families from realizing that they can seek and find "their people."</p>
<p>Even when a student might realize the stereotype is overblown, s/he often rules out a school because s/he does not want to be tarred with the same brush. That stereotype will now be attached to this student. Patently unfair and counterproductive, imo. My S undoubtedly realized in his heart of hearts that Vanderbilt has plenty of kids just like him, but he had no intention of reporting to his peers that he was headed to Vanderbilt only to have them deem him "one of them."</p>
<p>Sometimes you just can't take the kid and make him use his brain.</p>
<p>JHU is awesome and a wonderful school. The stereotype for it is nerdish, genius type. Is it true--probably there is a segment fitting that description. The other stereotype is the reaction I got from a parent (received when my one kid was also looking at that school in Nashville) : "you're considering JHU? Have you seen the neighborhood?"</p>
<p>Now with my senior S, I am listening to the stereotypes come home daily. This school is for dummies, this school is for genius types, this school is just right ( but too too too far away for mom and dad--ha). All one can do is say is "take a look and don't judge a book by its cover".</p>
<p>I have mixed feeling about this. I know from my own college years that lack of diversity in a student body can overrun a college, and not necessarily for the better. </p>
<p>I think, now matter what we might wish for, some kids will always find they simply do not "fit in" a particular college's culture. To deny that is simpy to deny reality. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I do believe that kids can often find a niche at a college. They are fortunate and sometimes are simply more creative or persistent or flexible than another kid. Who knows.</p>
<p>I do think that especially in the college search process kids need to try to tune out the noise from peers at HS and various web sites and review books. But, they might do well to try to look at colleges in depth and with clear eyes.</p>
<p>Actual lack of diversity in a college is one thing. Perceived lack of diversity due to stereotypes is another and it is what I am talking about here.</p>
<p>Musictoad, I wonder if the person of "Have you seen the neighborhood" has seen it herself? I consider the neighborhood west of campus to be a nice residential area (my best hs friend lives there with Hopkins literally in her back yard) segueing into one of Baltimore's finest residential areas. East of campus is a nice cafe/shops area. Maybe there are other abutters not so nice; I'm a city girl, so I admit to being somewhat immune to this type of worry.</p>
<p>All of this leads back to my rant about stereotyping. Yale is in a not-so-pretty-picture neighborhood and some folks won't consider it for that reason; I'm sure we could list dozens of schools in or around tough neighborhoods. But <em>some</em> schools get the stereotype and it is passed mindlessly on and on. People may mention tough location as one of many factors to consider about Yale, but they don't cast aside the school with a pithy statement about it. I, too, have often heard that first out of someone's mouth about JHU.</p>
<p>Enough, I say. If one knows little more about a school than a few catch phrases, one shouldn't contribute to a discussion of what that school is like.</p>
<p>Actually, I find it helpful to read other's opinions about schools, including the types of students attending, whether they are stereotypes or not. Due to school/work conflicts/distance, we had to visit some schools during the summer and had no idea of what the students were like. Even if you visit a school while it is in session, you often have very limited contact with the students, but you will have an opinion based on what you see or feel. I think it is important to realize that one person's opinion may not have any weight, but if ten or twenty people say the same thing then there may be some truth in it. Since this is a message board and a very useful resource for those of us who are researching different schools, I think it is helpful to get different perspectives. We just need to take things we read on it with a grain of salt and realize that the statements may or may not be true.</p>
<p>jmmon - I do agree it's a disservice to have eliminated some of the schools (UChi being one and very reluctantly at that) based on reading the book, but it wasn't the only reason. It would be very reachy for D to begin with, and larger and more urban than what she was looking for. </p>
<p>I only personally know one Vandy graduate, and he very successfully started his own company and is very "un-fratty."</p>
<p>musictoad - I agree that there is a gem, a germ, or even a grain of truth in stereotypes. We're so happy when we can shatter them, and so disappointed when we can confirm them.</p>
<p>My alma mater has a great deal of stereotypes associated with it, and a number of them are true. However in a school that size you get every kind of everything and it's almost impossible not to find a niche.</p>
<p>When dealing in stereotypes, palermo's grain of salt is important to keep in mind but so is the grain of truth that accounts for the evolution of the stereotype in the first place. If you're considering Yale or JHU, it's sensible to consider how you feel about the surrounding neighborhoods in a way that would not apply to Dartmouth. A kid who would be happy at Bard might also be OK at Hampshire or Bennington but possibly not at Colby, Middlebury or Davidson. On the other hand, no school has only one type of student and not everyone needs to be part of the majority cliques, some people don't mind, or even prefer, being part of a "fringe group."</p>
<p>Here's a joke about stereotypes:</p>
<p>In a Cambridge supermarket a sign says "This aisle 5 items or less."</p>
<p>A student with 6 items in his cart gets on line there. The store clerk yells "What's the matter with you, kid? Are you from Harvard and can't count or from MIT and can't read?"</p>
<p>The stereotype problem has another layer: when the applicants themselves are stereotyped. I think GCs do get kids wrong, too. They discourage or encourage the wrong schools based on their cursory 'read' of a student.</p>
<p>My D, who is clean-cut, proper, ladylike, etc was pointed towards preppy schools not "crunchy" schools-- YET, she is very artistic, and friends are very diverse. </p>
<p>Even though she herself is fairly 'preppy', she felt most at home on the less preppy campuses that offered a mix of people.</p>
<pre><code> What particularly irritates me is one-line descriptions of colleges, such as those given on another thread in this forum. You need to read guides and such to decide which colleges to visit, but these descriptions are generally thorough and detailed and at least help one decide whether to put it on the visit list.
One liners just perpetuate old stereotypes that may no longer be true since colleges often do try to make efforts to improve what their students tell them needs improving.
It was frustrating enough trying to get my son past the "it's got a funny name" objection to really look at what a college had to offer. It was hard enough to counter objections because he'd heard criticisms from a friend's brother who was there three years ago (that Berkeley stuffs four people into it's dorms and you'll get panhandled all the time.) UChicago would have been a great place for him -- he loves literature and languages -- but he refused to even visit after reading that one line, "where fun comes to die."
Out-dated information and stereotypes can create a lasting negative image in a teenager's mind. IF he had visited and ruled out certain colleges having at least been there, it wouldn't bother me so much, but to rule it out because of a one liner!
</code></pre>
<p>
[quote]
Actual lack of diversity in a college is one thing. Perceived lack of diversity due to stereotypes is another and it is what I am talking about here.
<p>JmMom...one issue with the stereotyped images assigned to various colleges is that it is self perpetuating. If a college is known as prep or known as jock or known as alternative granola or some other "image", who is going to apply? Kids who fit that description! "Oh, I'm applying there...I'll fit right in!" :) </p>
<p>Often there is some truth to the images with each school but on the other hand, particularly at the more selective schools, there is a diversity and most should be able to find their type on campus. It is best to visit and see for oneself.</p>
<p>And which kid would point out that the sign is wrong, that it should say "5 items or fewer?" The Brandeis kid?</p>
<p>I fault the folks who repeat stereotypes less than the folks who take them too seriously. </p>
<p>Let's face it. Campus cultures DO differ. U Chi, for example, where my D attends, has a well deserved stereotype. Is it an exaggeration? Of course. But that's kinda the point - summarize the extremity of a college in a short phrase, to warn prospective buyers.</p>
<p>Some kids who fit at Chicago would be no more happy at Northwestern than the other way around. That's life, and that's why we have differing college environments. In my own personal experience attending or working at several different universities, as well as visiting and evaluating a number of others, I find the stereotypes of each to be (1) entertaining (2) having an element of truth and (3) not worth losing much sleep over, or having an argument with someone about it.</p>
<p>The best way to determine how large the "gem of truth" is about a particular school is, obviously, to talk to kids who attend. (Just walking around a campus, observing, doesn't cut it). Certain stereotypes can characterize fairly significant proportions of a school's population, and as someone here noted, they tend to be self perpetuating. For example, it is true that my d's alma mata, Brown, is extremely liberal, even by college standards, and the culture tends to fall into the "granola, tree hugger" category. Are there plenty of exceptions, yes, but this culture is quite pervasive. Likewise, when my d. visited Williams for an overnight, she was able to get a sense of the importance of athletics there, and other aspects that did dovetail with certain stereotypes. </p>
<p>It's unfortunate when generalizations unfairly cast a negative light on a school. It's just that in the search for fit and the unfeasiblity of visiting everywhere, sometimes it's all one has to go on.</p>