College Visit Trip: First Stop Harvard

Parents Forum
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<p>We're on our whirlwind summer trip and I thought I'd share some info about the schools when I get internet access. Yesterday was our first stop: at Harvard. I'll try just to post things parents might not already know about the schools. Here are a few impressions:</p>

<p>Hot, hot day. Very little air-conditioning, and those rooms that were air-conditioned were set at cost-savings temperatures, if you get my drift. As expected, campus is beautiful with a strong sense of history. Campus was very full and busy...with prospective students. All of the Harvard students were enthusiastic, friendly, and articulate. Our student guide even insisted that the food is great! We got to see the dining hall at Hogwarts (the freshman dining hall at Harvard), but when asked about the location of Dumbledore's office, the student guide unceremoniously gave away the ending of the 6th book. Not cool.</p>

<p>All freshman live on Harvard Yard in varied and interesting room arrangements called entryways. Several freshman rooms housing up to 40 students in total open to one hallway (either horizontal or vertical) and these students constitute one group with an in-residence grad student advisor who advises about personal life, college life, and academics. Upperclassmen live in houses all final 3 years with an in-residence faculty member (master) and family. A "block" of 1 to 8 students who are self-selected enter a housing lottery and are placed in a house together. House identity and loyalty is obvious. Advisors switch to academic advisors in the student's concentration.</p>

<p>Majors are called "concentrations". Approx 14 of 32 credits are in the concentration, another quarter in core requirements, and another quarter in electives. There are no double majors, but there are "joint concentrations" with reduced requirements in each concentration and deletion of some core requirements. Each senior must write a thesis which ties together both concentrations in some way. When my D asked about combining chemistry and music, the admissions officer thought that it might not be possible, but noted that there are usually enough electives that even though students don't officially get a "joint concentration", the get the de facto experience.</p>

<p>Both the student guides and the students at the info session made such a big deal about debunking the "myth" that faculty are not accessible and that all classes are taught by TA's (TF's or teaching fellows in Harvard terminology), that one parent asked them why they felt the need to do so.</p>

<p>My D sensed a few, potentially minor put-offs. When she asked about the combined BA/MM program with the New England Conservatory and requested brochures (this is explained to a degree on the websites of both institutions), the admissions folks told her that they thought the program had only been in existence one year, that they didn't know anyone who was actually in the program, and recommended she call the music school and NEC separately. When kids asked the tour guides for their e-mail addresses, they refused to give them out. My D was surprised at this, since students at Yale and Princeton had freely done this on prior tours we've been on.</p>

<p>We had a lovely dinner at Legal Seafood followed by great ice cream at Herrell's. Cambridge is a hopping place in the summer, but the AGGRESSIVE and I do mean aggressive, pan-handling EVERYWHERE (even at the door of the CVS pharmacy) was disgusting. Our city has laws preventing this and the local police enforce them. Cambridge might consider this.</p>

<p>Today, Brandeis. Tomorrow, Williams. I'll try to get back when I can.</p>

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<p>Good report, Quiltguru.</p>

<p>I don't know about combining chemistry and music, but some years ago, a student wrote a senior thesis combining physics and music. It was a musical called Les Phys (see link below)
<a href="http://schwinger.harvard.edu/%7Egeorgi/LesPhysposter.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~georgi/LesPhysposter.gif&lt;/a>

[quote]
Both the student guides and the students at the info session made such a big deal about debunking the "myth" that faculty are not accessible and that all classes are taught by TA's (TF's or teaching fellows in Harvard terminology), that one parent asked them why they felt the need to do so.

[/quote]

As so often is the case, Harvard is used to contrast, unfavorably, research universities with LACs. And one point of comparison is the supposed use of TFs to teach undergrads. There is actually a query on the Harvard thread, comparing Harvard with Cornell in this regard. So I'll just repeat the response on the Harvard board and add my S's experience:
There are TFs teaching undergraduates in introductory math classes and in language classes. Members of the faculty teach all other classes.
My S has taken classes ranging from 10 to 200. The 10 student class had an undergraduate Course Assistant, a senior, who helped with reviews and graded problem sets. He had another class with 30 students, which had 3 undergraduate Course Assistants. His other classes were larger. The sections (of 18) were led by graduate student TFs. They reviewed the materials and graded problem sets and exams in math classes or led lab and graded exams in science classes.

[quote]
We had a lovely dinner at Legal Seafood followed by great ice cream at Herrell's. Cambridge is a hopping place in the summer, but the AGGRESSIVE and I do mean aggressive, pan-handling EVERYWHERE (even at the door of the CVS pharmacy) was disgusting. Our city has laws preventing this and the local police enforce them. Cambridge might consider this.

[/quote]

This has been going on since the mid-1970s, I believe, when a new policy or releasing non-violent mental patients into "the community" was instituted. Naturally, many who did not have families to go back to gravitated to places where there are good opportunities for making some money. There is a church in the Square that gives shelter to the homeless at which many Harvard students help out. But it's not enough to take care of all the needs. Cambridge residents have learned to live and let live.</p>

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<p>Marite, thanks for your clarifications. Some questions remain: regarding the three types of classes your son took, did they all have professors as well? I'm confused. And regarding the thesis requirement mentioned, that's specifically for double majors, right?</p>

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<p>We, too, were worried about this when our D went off to Harvard for her freshman year. Turned out to be a non-issue: except for her language class, all classes were taught by professors with discussions sections run by grad TAs. She had one class with 100 people in it, the other classes had 10-30 people in them. </p>

<p>Re contact with professors: maybe it is just her, but there didn't seem to be a "culture" of mingling with profs. Professors don't seem to actively pursue it (unless they are in the physics department)--and students can pursue it, but many don't (at least among D and the friends she knew at the dorm). There was one professor that she would have been interested in pursuing further conversations, but he was never around. So, if you are expecting the small LAC experience ("where everyone knows your name"), Harvard isn't it.</p>

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<p>Yes, all courses my S has taken have had profs in charge. The course assistants and the TFs are exactly what their titles imply: they assist; they don't teach. The Profs lectured to the whole class, the CAs and TFs attended the lectures, then held sections or review sessions where they might elaborate on some aspects of the lectures, go over unclear bits, go over problems, etc.... Since the courses he took were all in math and sciences, there were not the kind of discussions one would expect in humanities and social sciences sections. Another thing: some of his classes had optional study groups on top of the sections. In some cases, both the prof and some of the TFs were present at the study groups. I know my S approached them with questions on several occasions. </p>

<p>As far as the thesis goes, some concentrations are honors concentrations and require a thesis. Others don't, although if students want to receive honors, they must write one. I believe (not sure), that for joint concentrations, students MUST write a senior thesis, hence the problem of combining disparate majors. One of my S's friends is combining math and music, and, as Les Phys suggested, it is possible to combine physics and music. But chemistry and music? hmmmm....</p>

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<p>Thanks, marite, thats what I thought.</p>

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<p>Marite:
A musical involving chemistry & music? Maybe you could call it 'Les Bis' .
Ah, c'mon - <em>everybody</em> remembers bismuth from high school days, right? RIGHT?? Somebody? Anybody?</p>

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<p>Speaking as a former Harvard summer tour guide, they knew that if they did not bring it up, at least one parent would, and often in a confrontational manner that can negatively impact the tone of the tour or session. It's better to bring it up directly.</p>

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<p>Optimizerdad:</p>

<p>Good idea. Maybe the opening scene could include a musical rendition of
""Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble..."</p>

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<p>Quilt-
looking forward to the Williams trip report. Thank you for taking the time to post the one on Harvard. Did you do one on Princeton by any chance?</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Both the student guides and the students at the info session made such a big deal about debunking the "myth" that faculty are not accessible and that all classes are taught by TA's (TF's or teaching fellows in Harvard terminology), that one parent asked them why they felt the need to do so.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Get used to it. Our college visit experience suggests that tour guides at schools using TAs alway use a big part of the spiel to tell prospective students that they don't use TAs. "Methinks thou protestest too much" is indeed a warranted response. It's really funny when you start visiting large state universities and the doe-eye'd tour guide says, "Oh no. We're not like those other state universities. We don't have TAs teaching here." And, then you go to the next state university and an identical-twin tour guide gives the same spiel.</p>

<p>They all hide behind the ruse that the TAs don't actually teach. No, they only lead the discussion sections and grade the papers -- perhaps the most important parts of teaching a college course and the only parts where there is actually two-way student-teacher interaction.</p>

<p>It would be unfair to single out Harvard, although with its very large undergrad enrollment (for a private U), the use of TAs may be a little more prevalent than at some of the smaller universities. You'd have to research that on a case by case and department by department basis. Schools usually aren't real forthcoming about publishing TA data.</p>

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<p>What did the students say when they refused to give their emails? A good excuse?</p>

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<p>It is true that the combined Harvard - NEC program is just beginning. In fact, this is the first year. A friend of andison, who was accepted at H, and is a very talented pianist, was not accepted for the dual program. This student has very very good musical qualifications. It may be that he wasn't accepted because the program is so new and not entirely off the ground, or it may be that only if you are Yundi Li that you can get in, but as I can see from this experience, it is not a program for the basic "very good" musician and Harvard quality student.
BTW there is a combined program with Tufts and the NEC that has been in effect for quite awhile.</p>

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<p>To add to Ellemenope's and Marite's descriptions: Last fall my Freshman D had: 1 science course of about 300 taught by 2 professors with a weekly 25 person TF section; 1 anthropology course of about 30 taught by 1 professor with a weekly 15 or so person TF section; 1 language course taught by 1 professor and a number of instructors (5 or so - I think some were TFs) who rotated throught the 10 person recitation/drill sections so that all students would be exposed to a range of speaking styles; 1 freshman seminar of 9 students taught by 1 professor. FWIW, the anthropology TF was excellent, and gave detailed written comments on papers as well as great insight into her own research and how she became interested in graduate study. The language instructors were so compelling that D is considering a certificate in the language.</p>

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<p>Just a few comments here, then I'll start a new thread for Brandeis.</p>

<p>Interesteddad, your point about TA's was my point exactly. Even in the tiny LAC I went to, TA's graded organic chemistry exams and taught the labs. We have heard this at every tour, including our own U Mich. Would have appreciated more honesty. It brought a smile to see the adcom and student caught out in the info session.</p>

<p>I DID appreciate the adcom's honesty when she stated that of the class of 2009, 42% came from the early action pool, while cautioning that most of these were actually initially deferred then accepted RD. </p>

<p>The 3 tour guides who declined to give their e-mail addresses to students told them that they "were not allowed" to do so. 2 tour guides offered their e-mail addresses to prospects.</p>

<p>Kat, I didn't report on the Princeton trip because I didn't think it would be fair to do so. After taking the train from NYC, my D requested to leave after the info session and half-way through the tour after perceiving that Princeton would not be able to have flexibility at all in their program for her desires and recognizing that it is not the Ivy for students interested in music performance.</p>

<p>Now to write about Brandeis.</p>

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<p>guiltguru you might want to double check the facts on P-ton. There is a concentration in music and there are opportunities for performance. You can also choose your own music instructor from outside the school.</p>

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<p>Andi:</p>

<p>Princeton does have good opportunities for music. It does not allow joint concentrations, however.
You are right about how tough it is to get into H+ NEC. I read somewhere they were shooting for enrolling only 5 students this coming year. Maybe more later. But Tufts would be a good choice.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for all the good info. I was wondering if your D did the on-campus interview when she was at Harvard and if so, what it involved. Also, what did she see as the problems for a student interested in music perf at Princeton? We haven't visited yet, but on paper, music perf sounds good. No?</p>

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<p>Most of Princeton's music opportunities are on an individual basis and a performance major is not possible. Private lessons are possible, but this did not suit my D's desires. And no double concentrations are permitted, especially combining a hard science and music.</p>

<p>Harvard offers interviews only AFTER they receive the application, then they contact the student and prefer local alumni interviews. Thus, they did not offer on-site interviews this summer.</p>

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<p>Princeton doesn't allow double concentrations because the work and focus of a senior thesis, required of all students, would be unbearable with a double concentration. There are however certificates in various programs that you can combine with your concentration.</p>