<p>High school students should not be dumbed down. I think they, for example, can handle calculus and deserve to learn it. </p>
<p>They should also not be required to repeat a college class which they mastered in high school. That's redundant and intellectually frustrating.</p>
<p>What I think would work well is abolishing AP credit and replacing it with college equivalency tests that are administered by the colleges themselves. My rationale is familiarity -- colleges know their own curriculum better than collegeboard does. (some colleges already have this: many in regard to foreign language, and some other colleges in regard to other subjects..for ex. UChicago, I think?)</p>
<p>Does this mean freshman will have the same amount of credit? No, because some students will pass the test and get credit, and others will fail the test and not get the credit. In the sense that all students have the opportunity to take the credit equivalency test, however, the playing field would be much more equal. (whereas with AP credit, some high schools offer many AP classes and others do not. I think it's stupid to punish those students from high schools which don't offer many AP classes. )</p>
<p>Ive seen a ton of students get 5's on there AP calc and have to go back and retake it because they got killed in higher level classes. They are no equivalent,</p>
<p>"They should also not be required to repeat a college class which they mastered in high school. That's redundant and intellectually frustrating."</p>
<p>Agreed.</p>
<p>I don't see why there's a fuss about it, considering that AP test scores usually satisfy the very basic requirements for a major and don't really need to be learned at the university itself ...</p>
<p>I would be quite upset if I had to repeat Calc I or II in college
and I would be frustrated with Calc III if it was not as challenging as it should be</p>
<p>same with kids who get 5's on AP Comp Sci
that is not easy to do based on the statistics</p>
<p>AP classes and tests might be easier than actual classes at top 80 universities, but they're definitely harder than community college classes, and these universities arent capping dual credit or transfer hours.</p>
<p>But state unis should keep it. Even though I'm transferring after this year, I feel great knowing that at the end of this year (my first), I'll have 85 hours. So by the end of the year, I'll have taken a total of 6 junior and senior courses. </p>
<p>But in terms of other, more elite schools, I wouldn't think that AP scores have anything to do with anything. I just took a whole bunch 'cause I liked testing. APs should ONLY be used to allow students to get out of taking a course. For example, a 5 on Calc BC should not exempt students from taking any math.</p>
<p>I have finished every single core requirement at both my University and Honors program and already have 2 major requisite classes. What a joke? If I stay at my school, I'll basically decide to go for a double major with minor with a NORMAL credit load (i.e. 15 hrs per semester) or graduate in 2.5 years and go for an M.A. The latter purpose defeats the entire purpose of an undergraduate, purportedly liberal arts education.</p>
<p>Which is not to say that everyone is forced to repeat courses they already know...the advisors around here are more than willing to help students schedule around "repeat" classes - I got a number of prerequisite courses waived off by getting permission to enroll in the next, more advanced class in the series, whether I had AP credit for it or not (or even if an AP exam exists in that subject)</p>
<p>It's just, trying to build an equivalency between AP courses and the same intro course in college...doesn't work great.</p>
<p>quote: "but they're definitely harder than community college classes,"</p>
<p>Not necessarily. Some cc classes were more difficult and challenging than the university classes I took - all depends on the instructor. </p>
<p>Some need to get beyond the idea that an elite school makes for an elite education - sometimes not so much. </p>
<p>It also doesn't matter how good the high school AP class was - experience, age and maturity can have a major effect on one's education. What we hear/do at 15 will have a different impact from what we hear/do at 20 (and 35). Those experiences shouldn't always be waved, even if some of the content is the same.</p>
<p>Some schools actually give you credit for APs -- I think Johns Hopkins does. That means you could theoretically graduate earlier, or load up on major and minor courses, and wind up with a double major.</p>
<p>Other schools just let you move on to a higher-level class with a good AP score, but they don't let you skip the requirement. That means while you might not have to take Calc again in college, you might still have to take some math course. So you'll be at a higher level but you won't get to graduate early.</p>
<p>I don't know if any schools do both. When I was at Northwestern, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I placed out of Freshman English but was required to take a higher level course. But I also received 12 credit hours for my AP and wound up graduating a quarter early.</p>
<p>The HS my kids go to is trying to eliminate APs. The school is affluent, so it's not because of monetary concerns. The school admins say they can offer courses that are more intellectually stimulating than the APs. In their talks, they claim that most colleges don't offer credits for APs & admissions counselors don't care if a school doesn't have APs, as long as a student takes the most demanding courses the school offers. </p>
<p>I initally came to this post because it says Emory reduced the # of credits to 32. Even if they reduced it - 32 credits amounts to 1 year & $50,000. In looking at college web sites, I see that they DO offer AP credit &/or placement out. I don't agree with our school's proposal.</p>
<p>Take for example the World History AP class - the class is taught entirely different from a typical World History course - it forces the kids to look at history with a global/"big picture" perspective. It teaches them how to specifically write essays in a certain way. These are skills that could be well utillized in a college classroom, but while I think the training is good, I don't think that the course itself goes indepth enough to honestly say that it is equalivant to a college level history course. Great training for college, yes - in place of it? no. </p>
<p>One thing I disagree with is the fact that these skills (the essay emphasis - looking at the big picture) are limited to the kids in the AP class. All history courses in high school should and could be taught this way - to all levels of learners. There will be many who disagree with me, but I think it is a legitament concern. We teach to the few (those labled, rather early I might add ,as "gifted" or whatever) to prepare for the best and ignor the masses/the average/ the "less than" . I don't think it's good for society as a whole or the children who fall through the cracks. </p>
<p>To do away with the AP label would allow the high school to focus on teaching rather than the hoops that they have to go through to get "approval" for the AP classes. As long as their teachers were trained in
AP theory, I don't think it would matter if the class was labeled "AP" as such. </p>
<p>And, as far as colleges are concerned, as long as the students there "take the most challanging classes offered by their high school" - they are ok for admission. So in that regard it wouldn't matter.</p>
<p>It seems like Emory's policy brings up the biggest problem in US education: how do you keep high-achievers challenged while not ignoring the ones who struggle.</p>
<p>Maybe US educators (both high school districts and colleges) should look at the European system.</p>
<p>In Germany, after taking the Abitur at the age of 16, the students either progress to a trade school for two years or a gymnasium--two years of more advanced studies. After the two years at the gymnasium, the student moves onto university.</p>
<p>Do the AP's represent college work? Not really. In fact, they are much harder than similar courses at community colleges. </p>
<p>Except for the cost , why would anyone want to finish college early? You have your whole life ahead of you . . . enjoy college while it lasts.</p>
<p>I'm in favor of the limits. While college is foremost an academic experience, it is also a period of great (and privileged) social and emotional growth. I don't think anyone should expect to reduce their time in school by the equivalent of a year's worth of AP course credits.</p>
<p>My husband who claims to have had absolutely fantastic high school AP teachers asserts that the physics and history he took in high school was inferior and no comparison for the "Tools for Fools" and History he took at Yale. Just a thought.</p>
<p>As for spending a year preparing for tests - that's remarkably like real college. Except for lab courses, and courses with lots of writing or projects, most of your grade ends up being exams, with some token homework grades (10%-15%) to give you incentive to do the work. Other classes go so far as so homework is suggested but not graded. Final exams often end up as 40% or 50% of the final course grade.</p>
<p>On the other side, there's a lot of misunderstanding of what people are actually comparing here - "rigorous" could mean any of a bunch of different things. Measured in hours of homework, difficulty in getting high grades, amount of content learned, difficulty of content learned, or even just number of chapters completed in the textbook? Those don't necessarily go all together at all. </p>
<p>For example, AP English. I remember doing a lot of work in that class - hours of homework each night, out of class and in-class essays every week, and we read tons of different books. Yet no one in the whole class (out of more than 30) got a 5, not one at all (it was my only 4 out of the seven AP's I took, too, the rest being 5's). </p>
<p>Alternatively, the freshman writing course here only requires 2 in-class essays and about half-dozen or so out of class essays over one semester. Conclusion? Tough to say. Just in pure number of hours you have to invest? The AP course, by far. Amount and difficulty of content learned? Probably the college course. So which should be considered more "rigorous"?</p>
<p>Pearl, you must have the good fortune (IMO) of being in a school district that challenges students. You say that the schools are geared for the few, or the "gifted." In my public school system, the needs of those few to whom you refer are ignored. Instead, the emphasis is on teaching to those who have trouble --- and, unfortunately, to those who don't care enough to do the work it takes to be able to move a class forward more quickly. AP courses in my local public schools are not nearly as rigorous as those taught in my D's college-prep parochial school --- but at least by offering APs, the public school is forced to offer something somewhat challenging for those students who need to be challenged. I happen to substitute teach in the public high school, so I am able to compare the public and parochial schools with first-hand knowledge.</p>
<p>I have some issues with AP chem as taught at both schools, because the lab component is weak. I would not want my children to move on in college chem without proper lab experience; they would be at a disadvantage. Other APs have been good, but I suppose comparing them to college courses depends on the college. The schools to which my D is applying have much more interesting intro Psych courses than her AP Psych (she sat in on Psych classes at 3 colleges). However, in talking to students at other colleges, the AP Psych class in high school was about the same as their college intro class. Again, comparison depends on college. Same with AP Comp --- some high schools teach it well, others do not; some college writing classes are easier, some are harder than AP.</p>
<p>What is the answer? I have no idea. Testing out of a year at a school with expensive tuition is very appealing. Then again, you might miss something different and important in the hurry to be done. You could do away with APs, but some kids would never get the necessary rigor to succeed in college. You could do away with APs and get BETTER classes. It all depends on the high school. You could go with Germany's system, as suggested earlier, but then that categorizes kids in a way that might not be in their best interest. So, again, what is the answer? I don't know.</p>
<p>the ap program by college board is a joke as a whole</p>
<p>getting a 4 or 5 on an AP test is infinitely times easier than getting an A in the equivalent college course...but hey, I dont care that much since I'm a senior and I'll be getting my due credit at the college I go to next year</p>