<p>David Oxtoby of Pomona College wants colleges and universities to limit the number of AP scores that could be submitted by any one student for college admissions. In a call for a return to the basics and away from the frenzy of AP and post-AP driven high school curricula, many educators simply want to let high school be high school and college be college.</p>
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"Too much of the high-school curriculum is turning into a pale imitation of college courses instead of providing the solid foundation that students need to build on in the future."
<p>This is rather timely in that Newsweek's Best High Schools issue should be out in the next couple of weeks. Last year, Newsweek, "added one new feature to the Web site version of some schools on the listthe percentage of graduating seniors with at least one passing score on an AP or IB test." If a grand AP program is what it takes for high schools to move up on Newsweek's list, then the explosion of AP classes has just begun.</p>
<p>Pomona can do anything it wants with respect to how they use AP scores, but many institutions consider the curriculum applicants take in the light of the classes offered. Students will take AP classes not only for the scores, but to show adcoms they are taking the most advanced classes their HS has to offer.</p>
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One positive step would be to limit the number of AP scores that could be submitted by any one student.
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<p>Who exactly would, "limit the number of AP scores that could be submitted by any one student"? College Board or individual schools?</p>
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Admissions offices also need to communicate with schools that an AP label is less important than a challenging and innovative course.
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<p>How exactly can adcoms determine, "a challenging and innovative course", out of the myriad simply labeled "Chemistry" on a HS transcript? Currently, the AP label conveys some measure of rigor.</p>
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I worry that advanced-placement programs are rapidly becoming the latest way in which schools are "teaching to the test," rather than using creativity to excite and challenge students.
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<p>I think that the author of this article lives in a dream world. AP isn't replacing exciting and creative courses designed by teachers. It's replacing dull, less rigorous courses designed by state or county curriculum committees. At least with AP there is some sort of accountability: If the students in a particular AP course at a particular school usually do well on the AP test, that course gets the reputation of being a "good" AP course; if they do badly, it gets the reputation of being a "poor" AP course. With non-AP courses, there may be no accountability at all.</p>
<p>The author of the article does make a good point about the problem of important basics being sacrificed for more APs. I have seen kids here on CC speculate about the advisability of substituting APs for basics in order to impress admissions committees, for example, by 1) dropping one's foreign language early (say, after level 2 or 3) in order to make room in the high school schedule for additional AP courses in other subjects, or 2) not taking one or more of the three core high school sciences (biology, physics, chemistry) in order to make room in the high school schedule for more APs. Guidance counselors and parents need to watch out for this sort of thing.</p>
<p>My kids, like many of their friends, have taken non-core APs. My son took AP Psychology and AP Computer Science. My daughter took AP Economics and AP Environmental Science. But their counselors and I were careful to make sure that they took sufficient foreign language and basic science courses in addition to these special-interest APs. And I think that the special-interest APs were extremely valuable to both kids. My son is now a computer science major, and my daughter plans to major in economics. The special-interest APs gave them opportunities to explore subjects in high school that led to long-term serious interests in those fields.</p>
<p>My son took 4, out of 6 or 7 his HS offers. Three of them (French, English and Government) have been wonderful and stimulating courses with great teachers. AP Calc has been just adequate. I am concerned about the kids I read about on CC who start taking APs in freshman year. Sounds like they are working themselves into the ground. I think colleges should be more specific. In the end, my son got into every college he applied to, even though he didn't take, for example AP Bio (the only "solid AP his school offered that he didn't take).</p>
<p>I don't think the proposal is to limit the number of APs a student can take. (I didn't read the article - no time. Assuming this based on what has been quoted.) Rather, to limit the number they can get college credit for. So a student with a high degree of academic motivation can still show that he is attacking the most rigorous level available.</p>
<p>I think this proposal might have some merit. I think college offers something high school doesn't, and kids who come to college with a year or more already credited due to APs might be losing something in the process. </p>
<p>And at some colleges, the AP course - regardless of score achieved - doesn't begin to measure up. My S1 took AP Calc BC and got a high A in the course, and a 5 on the exam. He dropped out of the next level Calc in college because he realized right away that it was way beyond him. He struggled more than would have been necessary in several courses because he placed out of the first level. He wanted to go to school all four years anyway, and enjoyed a lighter schedule and more courses "for the fun of it" - so there was an advantage, but starting some of those AP classes over again might have been beneficial, too. </p>
<p>It seems a reasonable compromise is to allow the student "some" AP credit, but limit the number. Let the student choose which.</p>
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I think that the author of this article lives in a dream world. AP isn't replacing exciting and creative courses designed by teachers. It's replacing dull, less rigorous courses designed by state or county curriculum committees.
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<p>I agree. If it had not been for some APs, my S would have skipped high school altogether. Oh, and when he entered high school, there were heterogeneous classes for 9th and 10th graders taught at a level comfortable for students who read at 6th grade level, and APs, available to juniors and seniors. Nothing in between (that lunatic policy has since been changed). So what did S do? took real college courses.</p>
<p>There are some colleges that allow students to graduate in one year by piling on AP and college credits. At the other end of the spectrum are those who allow only a couple of credits to be used, mostly to get out of intro level classes; then there are those who give sophomore standing but no more, no matter how many AP credits are piled up. At Harvard, for example, it does not matter if a student has 18 or 4 credits, since 4 is the maximum that can be used for AS.</p>
<p>AP courses are the only thing that make HS bearable for some kids. (OK, that and Band, Theatre, Art, & Choir!) They would absolutely suffer through regular Eng., Bio, or Hist. They need more intellectual rigor, a higher level of discussion, and a faster pace than is usually provided for in the standard HS curriculum.</p>
<p>And if they are also interested in non-core areas, let them take those APs as well.</p>
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At Pomona College, students can use only two AP courses — with scores of 4 or 5 on the AP exam — to earn credits needed toward graduation.
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<p>So what is the author complaining about? Colleges have a perfect right to limit APs they will accept for credit, or require that students complete their first-year course as well before granting credit. Many of the "elite" schools do this.</p>
<p>Regarding "teaching to the test": this brings up an interesting question regarding AP tests. With more and more AP classes that prepare students for the AP test, are schools ceding curriculum and instructional decisions to College Board, creators of the AP test? In effect, College Board, not the state or local school boards, determines what is being taught in these classes. Unless the students are capable of mastering the AP material while still allowing time for additional material school boards deem important, the boards are at the mercy of any changes College Board may make to the content of the tests.</p>
<p>I don't quite get what Pomona College means. From their website:
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Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate Exam Credit Effective for students admitted Fall 2004 or later.
Students are granted one full credit for any Advanced Placement or International Baccalaureate Higher Level Exam on which an appropriate score has been earned (for AP, a score of 4 or 5; for IB, a score of 6 or 7. Other equivalent exams, such as the Swiss matura or the British A-levels, are also available for one credit, when completed with an equivalent score). Credit is not granted for exams which duplicate each other, such as AP and IB English Literature. If a course is taken that is equivalent to an advanced standing exam (equivalency defined by the department in question) no credit for the exam will be given. There is no limit to the amount of advanced standing credit that may be accrued through AP or IB exams, but credit received for advanced standing does not supersede the Colleges 30-course rule.
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So, they are saying that there is no limit to the amount of AP credit, BUT it does not supersede their 30-course rule ?</p>
<p>My problem with AP courses involves pursuing the "most rigorous courseload available." At our high school, there are several honors-level courses that are extremely innovative and challenging -- particularly in social studies and English. But if students choose these courses, it reduces the number of slots in their schedule they have available for AP courses. So even though these particular honors-level courses are just as difficult and time-consuming as AP courses, a college admissions officer looking at a transcript and seeing that the student chose an honors-level course instead of an AP-level course, might penalize the student as not having taken the most rigorous courseload available. If the admissions officer knows the school's curriculum, and is familiar with those courses, then it works out. But otherwise, the kids who chose all the APs are going to look like they took the harder classes.</p>
<p>it seems that heterogeneous grouping and teaching to the state assessments do not meet the needs of the high ability students who need more challenge. availability of honors, ap, and college courses help meet the very real needs of the high ability learner.</p>
<p>Agree that some non-AP courses can be as rigorous as or even more rigorous than AP courses; but that's not the beef of the author. He wants high school students to take high school courses, not courses that are college-equivalents. </p>
<p>If a high school offers non-AP courses that are rigorous, the GC marks "most rigorous curriculum." Some highly regarded high schools do not offer AP classes. Their students have great success being admitted to top schools.</p>
<p>As for ceding control to the CB, whose committees are made up of college profs and high school teachers (and believe me, college profs often don't know how to teach high schoolers) I'd rather do so than ceding control to incompetent local ed boards. See: </p>
<p>I actually like standardized testing and have no problem with teachers having to teach to the test. After looking at the prep books and reading many dbq's for some of the AP's I believe this is definitly college level material.
Son went into college with tons of ap credits. The flexibility this gives him in choosing classes is awesome.</p>
<p>Pomona just wants other schools to copy them so they do not lose admits. They think their way is right. I have had students who turned down Pomona because of their lack of flexiblity on courses. Many colleges want students to beilieve their courses are all better than any high school courses, some schools have their own unique core (Caltech, Olin). They often want to have a uniform curriculum that is easier to plan staffing and want the students to stay four years.They have publically stated that.(Some of it is egio driven). That is fine. But that is not for everybody. One student I know who turned down Pomona went to a top state school, I think UW, because it offered him j lot of credit and a opportuntity to get a double degree in three years and a chance for that person to go to med school early, which that person did. </p>
<p>I taught at a university that did not give credit for a particular AP course. I asked them why and they said the AP could not be as rigorous. So I brought in a syllabus and tests that showed it to be just as tough or tougher and that it covered the same material used the same text etc. So they changed policy.
An AP course has certain core requirements, but those do not limit the course or the depth. At many schools much more is added. I know schools where there is no attempt in AP Lit/ or Comp to teach to a test but where every kid gets a 5. Why, because they believe if they teach kids how to read and write and think they can do well on any test. </p>
<p>Now what may be happening is that as more students take AP and what was college level and succeed, colleges can juice up their own curriculum they used to teach which was like AP and thus improve their overall level of education. However, since colleges sign off on what constitutes an equivalent curriculum for AP and comparitive tests are given to validate rigor and knowledge, either it will no longer be called Advanced Placement or the AP curriculum will have to be beefed up to meet the new higher expectation.</p>
<p>Colleges trust AP courses. S1 had the opportunity to take courses from a local CC and from a local 4 year university. We inquired at S1's target college about what they thought about that. The answer was to avoid them and stick with the high school courses. They said the courses might be great, but they had no way to evaluate them as they did a high school curriculum. Perhaps this is one reason colleges like the AP's, they can be evaluated with relative consistency.</p>
<p>Colleges even trust AP over IB, which is less familiar to them.</p>
<p>IB diploma program students at my daughter's school routinely spend the extra money to take AP tests (in addition to IB tests0 in their IB standard level subjects because colleges will usually give credit for the APs but only give credit for higher level IBs (and even then, there are sometimes restrictions).</p>
<p>My S took12 APs a HS, but the courses at the local U were not available in HS: advanced math, physics, macro-economics, Latin. I think any admissions committee could grasp the intensity of such classes. In the end, he chose a college that gave no credit for APs.</p>
<p>I know other students from local HS whose needs were met with either APs or IB, and only took math in college classes, and any path seemed successful. I think that the child should pursue his/her interests, and focus less on what a college might like. Attending college classes impedes some ECs, so scheduling can be difficult.</p>
<p>My D is taking AP US History. She write no term papers. She learns no historiography. She has no need of a college library. She has not learned at the college level; the teacher is teaching to the exam and nothing else. Her dream school (she's a jr) no longer gives credit for most AP courses, including all the histories. College teaches you how to think, not just a lot of what to know.</p>