<p>I got accepted to Reed College and Colorado College with a 3.3 cumulative (and all my other schools besides, none of which were safeties). Granted, I had good test scores and some other things going for me (I also shaped up a bit, and currently have a 4.0 for senior year), but I think it shows plenty of schools "take risks" on students such as myself (Whether I'm <em>bright</em> or not, however, I couldn't tell you).</p>
<p>I'd agree there are multiple reasons to an underachieving GPA other than laziness. In my situation, there was a good deal of procrastination involved, and a great amount of disorganization (I didn't even clip things into binders until this year). But it was also because I primarily liked to learn on my own, be it teaching myself languages, researching, or reading, and that took priority, wisely or not.</p>
<p>My son is very gifted (high SATs) but didn't work very hard in high school--involved in theatre instead. He was rejected at most of the schools he applied to, including Reed and Chicago. He was, however, accepted at his first choice, St. John's College, and chose the Santa Fe campus, which is spectacularly beautiful. He is immersed in the Great Books program and loving it. St. John's seems to take the view that if you are committed to the Great Books, and are of at least normal intelligence, they will give you a try. I don't mean that in a dismissive way. St. John's seems to be looking for intellectuals, and seems to have figured out that intellectuals do not necessarily find the high school environment challenging or interesting. I never thought I'd see my son read Thucydides all day, but that's exactly what I saw him do over winter break. He's happier than he's ever been, and already talking about graduate school.</p>
<p>I finally went back and read the HuffPo piece cited in the OP. Stunned! Daniel is not a pseudonym but a real person at Garfield HS. What kind of father offers such a public, identifiable accounting of his child's assets and liabilities. I applaud Daniel for having the psychological stamina to survive the end of HS in this family.</p>
<p>Garfield historically produces the greatest number of NMS students in WA state. Its counselor's are extremely experienced at getting AP kids into top tier schools. I can't believe they would have encouraged or supported an unrealistic EA application to Yale - that sounds like Dad's quest for a window sticker war winner.</p>
<p>Maybe feeling a little self-guilt over Daniel's lack of paper credentials? Application season of the SR years is too late for parents to be just learning "about the empirics of admission". What were you doing the last 4, 8, 12 years? For Daniel's sake, I hope the 10 applications were selected for himself, and not for his histrionic father.</p>
Interesting pair of schools, given the topic of the thread. Reed is an excellent and often overlooked school, but I'm not sure if it would be a good choice for a BKWDLGOP. Reed is a tough school, its laidback attitude notwithstanding. Last time I checked, Reed's four and six-year graduation rates were around 60% and 75%. Unless a BKWDLGOP kicks it into high gear, would those students really do well at Reed?</p>
<p>I think Colorado College, on the other hand, would be a great choice for such applicants. Students take one course at a time, which would encourage greater focus on learning the topic at hand.</p>
<p>Two other colleges (not yet mentioned) for consideration should include Franklin and Marshall (PA) and Wheaton (MA).
A quick comment about New Haven. The New Haven of the 2000s is nothing like that of the 1970s and 1980s. The city has made tremendous improvements and is one of the cultural capitals of CT. It has great theater, restaurants, museums, and a sense of community. One has to be careful, as in any city, but the crime rate is much lower than in the past.</p>
<p>To IBclass06: For BKWDLGOP, I think there's a distinct subset who underachieved for a variety of subtler reasons that could be summarized as "not being challenged or inspired", as clich</p>
<p>The way the article is written sounds like the author is trying to brag about his son. Do we know how smart and talented he is and if the 'spontaneous' aspect of his personality is really that and not just a disinclination toward work?</p>
<p>
[quote]
And after tracking the College Confidential message board like a stalker in the days before the November 15 announcement - where every student waved like flashing badges of glory their 2400 SAT's, 4.0 GPA's, and Perfect 5's on the 10 or 12 AP exams they had taken - I welcomed Daniel's rejection. I think he cared more about going to school where people were smart and happy, not perfect and plastic.
<p>First i got to say, i am SHOCKED by the overwhelming number of parent posts.
I appreciate what strykermom said... not all kids appear on paper to be an underachiever because of laziness (although i admit if i had been more studious i would be better off, who wouldnt be?)... I personally have had a family set back that led me to drop out of school. I actually just wrote my first post, A non-traditional case but not a non-traditional student, and i would really appreciate some parenting!
That said (and i hope that plug works) there are some school that say they focus on character and non-grade things more so than grades. Such as... Bard, American, columbia, depaul (step down), sarah lawrence, and eugene lang (a school i just discovered but i have quickly fallen in love with, ive never been this excited about a school and prior to dropping out there was really no school that was clearly out of reach, so despite it being small and relatively unknown its filling a spot in my desiring heart that no ivy did.)
And please please check my thread or send me a message or something, because i need help, and i am not nearly so high on my horse as daniels father and not nearly so lazy as daniel not only am i willing to fill out 10 applications, i got a second job just so i can now afford 12, haha.</p>
<p>
[quote=]
And after tracking the College Confidential message board like a stalker in the days before the November 15 announcement - where every student waved like flashing badges of glory their 2400 SAT's, 4.0 GPA's, and Perfect 5's on the 10 or 12 AP exams they had taken - I welcomed Daniel's rejection. I think he cared more about going to school where people were smart and happy, not perfect and plastic.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>it is silly to assume that all kids who high stats are "plastic" (likewise, it is silly to assume they all must have terrible social lives). not all kids who have high stats have to toil for hours to get them. high-achieving kids can also be spontaneous and interesting and unique. oh, and they can be very happy, too. having known a plethora of high stats kids, the vast majority of them have been happy, engaging, fun people.</p>
<p>Smart kids find other smart kids no matter where they go to college. </p>
<p>If he wanted a top tier college he should have paid attention to their requirements earlier in the game.</p>
<p>Wesleyan and Bard do value arts, etc., but both are very hard to get into these days nonetheless. Reed is getting more and more selective as well.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not for American students eligible for financial aid at state universities
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</p>
<p>In NY state you have to be rather poor to receive an Financial Aid for state schools. I imagine if the financial situation was that rough the only choices would be state schools or private schools that give considerable aid or merit scholarship.</p>
<p>Putting a privileged young adult into another rarified environment where he or she will again be carefully prodded and coddled seems like standing in the way of a good lesson. I think students should get to go to a college that they earned (assuming we are talking about work ethic issues, and not learning disabilities or health issues). A young adult who chose not to work hard does not deserve for parents to pay $200,000+ so he or she can live in the lap of luxury for another four years. I am all for LAC's and private schools in general, but not for the undeserving. That's a pretty special ride.</p>
<p>At some point, people need to be hit in the face with the cold air of reality. If all that coddling didn't get the message through at home in eighteen years, why would throwing another quarter of a million dollars at the problem work? I say the parents should take all that money and put it towards their retirement. If they have enough for that already, they should pick a charity and donate it. Let junior go to the best state school he can get it to - the school he earned. There he can develop the "work ethic, organizational skills, and habits that lead to success" (Toadstool) if he chooses to do so. Getting a state school paid for is still quite a luxury. I'd also have him take out loans.</p>
<p>Doing anything other than sending a student to the college environment they have earned (not by birth, but by hard work alone) is getting in the way of natural consequences. That is never a good thing to do.</p>
<p>From my experience many very smart kids have trouble because they lack good time management and study skills, which lead to them missing out on key prerequisite information and skills that make competing in environments where a certain background is required. This has little to do with intelligence and everything to do with have the requisite entry knowledge. For those kids it is often better to attend a place where they can find a cadre of other smart kids, and pick up the background they need and either transfer or look for top grad programs. A recent president of the United States took that route.</p>
Tuition at Edinburgh for most overseas students runs from £10,500 to £13,800. For living expenses, add another £5000 (if you're frugal). More realistically in the major cities, you're looking at £7000. Adding a flight to and from the UK, that's another £750. Total, you're looking anywhere from £16,250 to £21,550 ($23-30,000). </p>
<p>Oxford is more expensive. £11,750-13,450 for tuition, £5200 for college expenses, £3100 for accommodation, £1500 for food, and again £750 for an international flight. A total of £22,300-24,000 ($31-34,000).</p>
<p>For families who can afford to pay $30,000 a year entirely out of pocket, UK universities may be great. For those who can't, domestic schools with financial aid are the better choice.</p>
<p>idad writes: "From my experience many very smart kids have trouble because they lack good time management and study skills, which lead to them missing out on key prerequisite information and skills that make competing in environments where a certain background is required (difficult). This has little to do with intelligence and everything to do with have the requisite entry knowledge. For those kids it is often better to attend a place where they can find a cadre of other smart kids, and pick up the background they need and either transfer or look for top grad programs. "</p>
<p>I agree with this statement. And I don't agree that all bright kids who don't look good on paper are coddled. It seems many of these especially bright kids have not had to work hard because things come easily to them; they test well with little to no studying and have never really had to work hard at it. I am not saying all smart kids are like this, but from my own experience with myself (for whom writing and art came easily) and my son (for whom everything BUT writing and art comes easily), time management was (for me) and is (for my son) a huge issue. Procrastination plays a HUGE part in it, as we put off what we find "uncomfortable" as well as what we find to be easy (because we CAN do it at the last minute).
This is something out of which I have almost completely matured ;-) I suspect if given the time, my son and others will too, and coddling/or lack thereof had nothing to do with it. The trick is finding that "right" place to do it (mature), which is the gist of this thread. I found it at Goddard College (very much like Evergreen here in WA) where no requirements meant I had to develop my own plan. Others might find it where they can work with their peers and "compete" with each other, egging each other on to greatness. And still others may find it is where they can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. There are a ton of great schools out there that are good for the BKWDLGOP. It is likely to be a different one for each kid though.
I am not sure how anyone can get into a school they did not "earn". By virtue of their "not looking good on paper", they will not be going to YHPS, or Caltech or MIT. They will not be accepted by Grinnell or Reed or Harvey Mudd either. They will go to a public U or a small LAC (maybe even a CC) and hopefully "figure it out" and possibly transfer to a newly "earned" school, go on to grad school, or graduate with a respectable skill that leads to employment.
They won't be the first or the last.</p>
<p>Very entertaining article but I'm exhausted after reading it. Wake-up call for the dad, who may be a wordier, more intense and analytic personality than the son. The son strength's seem to be interpersonal ones: personal warmth, a desire to connect with both students and faculty at his high school, likability, appealing and sunny personality, social, apparent lack of stress over deadlines or grades. Sounds like a go-with-the flow type regular guy who would enjoy the relationships he could build within a small campus environment. My impression is that many smaller schools seek students who will contribute to the social environment and be good citizens, especially if the schools are located in out-of-the-way areas. </p>
<p>As a student, it doesn't sound like he is setting the world on fire (yet) and may just not have the interest or drive or work habits to complete rigorous and sustained academic projects until he matures a little. At ultra selective universities, he may be mowed down by more passionate and driven students. It takes more to succeed than just being bright and attending class with other bright kids.</p>
<p>If he were my son, I'd look for a smaller LAC with a large proportion of students living on campus and with a high graduation rate, with class sizes as small as possible. (Small classes provide external structure for the student to complete the assignment and show up; large lecture-type classes are easier to skip which can start a student down a slippery slope.) Small classes will provide more opportunities for students and professors to connect, which in turn will help the student to become more engaged. This will help fine-tune the student's time management skills and areas of interest. In a couple of years, his academic picture will look different, and if things go well, dad can have his second chance with grad school applications. </p>
<p>Sounds like this student would be a wonderful neighbor and friend. Also sounds like the author has been told for the kid's entire life that his son was so bright/so full of potential/etc. and that everyone has high expectations for the son. Intelligence is expressed in many forms, and sheer IQ (with or without EQ) doesn't guarantee academic superstardom. It's not enough to be bright, and my impression is that Dad just got the memo. What has the student done with those brains? Which of the college's resources might he exercise? What ignites him and keeps the flame burning?</p>
<p>Agree with speckledegg's analysis. It's really frustrating to read the original article and not know where Daniel applied. CTCL would really be a wonderful recommendation, because the feeling that comes through the dad's article is that the only place where Daniel will be inspired will be somewhere selective, which is of course exactly where he's not going to get in. Not to mention that a place like Yale isn't probably the right school for a kid who needs something to "[make] palatable the often-dry, exhausting work of studying and learning from books." This is a kid who is going to be inspired not by his fellow students but by his teachers.</p>
<p>Well, I went back and read the article after seeing this thread.</p>
<p>I noticed that Daniel has an interest in music, and in writing. These interests should guide his choice, not his Dad's ambitions for him to go somewhere selective, as the apparently sole criteria.</p>
<p>There are books out about the best schools for music, or for writing, and information here on CC too, for that matter.</p>
<p>Bennington, Sarah Lawrence and Macalaster and Oberlin come to mind for me. Marlboro, Clark.</p>
<p>But without more substantive information on Daniel and what he likes to do and work at, it is tough to suggest anything.</p>
<p>By the way, when my son was not all that interested in getting to applications, I told him that it was fine with me if he wanted to work for a year. I went out, and when I came back, they were done.</p>