Actually, now I am curious. Could you name the “major universities” that could not accommodate an advanced math student? All of the selective universities I am familiar with are quite used to advanced math students. The standard protocol seems to be the following:
Calculus and linear algebra can be skipped without substitute if the student demonstrates mastery.
Undergraduate real analysis and abstract algebra can be replaced with the graduate versions when appropriate.
All electives can be taken at an appropriate level and may include independent study arrangements.</p>
<p>Many people good at math also are good at music and enjoy it. She needs a school where she can take grad level math courses. No matter how good some consider LACs for math an advanced student won’t be able to do grad level work in many different math fields as an undergrad. I notice the LAC math student had to use other Us to get the needed math- why hassle with that instead of having many others with equal (or better) abilities and interest to be with? Undergrad math clubs with speakers. Ability to hear grad level speakers. Big fish in small pond or huge pond with equally interested professors to guide her?</p>
<p>Son recently got his math degree from UW-Madison with Honors. He had an excellent honors sequence of math courses to begin with and at least 4 grad courses as an undergrad. Look at rankings for math grad schools. UW ranked around 15th per US News and World Reports. Unfortunately Ken Ono, a top Number Theory person in that field, recently left UW for Emory. This may make Emory a close school that offers scholarship money and has a good math program. Many flagship schools have top rated math grad programs but are not as likely to offer scholarship money as private schools.</p>
<p>Of course places like MIT et al should be on the radar. Many schools will have the music opportunities to satisfy a math student. Also, between now and college entrance many kids change their minds. It is good to look at schools now- exploring possibilities for the near future. Seeing what is out there now will raise awareness of what is involved in the field. I know the UW math department’s web site has links to many sites, including REUs (summer research experience for college undergrads) held at many colleges, some great for a summer experience but not the one to choose for the college experience. Other top math schools will likely have an equal wealth of information.</p>
<p>I assume the student will take the national math tests offered at HSs, this could lead to opportunities as well.</p>
<p>Do not assume someone interested in math should consider actuarial science, or even statistics or computer science. Those fields use math but are completely different in focus. Consideration will need to be given to applied or theoretical math at the GRAD school level eventually. Or, she may discover using math in a more immediately practical field such as those above or an engineering field appeals to her by the time she applys to or is in college. A leading research school is her best bet for offering fields that she can become aware of early in her college years.</p>
<p>I just want to spritz a little cold water on this sometimes overheated discussion. A 10th grader taking AB Calculus is not per se a math genius. She has no idea at this point whether she wants to pursue theoretical or applied math. (Pretty much everything she has done to date, and been good at, will have been applied math.) Or whether she wants to pursue math at all. So it’s jumping the gun a little to suggest that she needs to have access to a strong graduate program in pure math while she is an undergraduate. Maybe yes, maybe no, but I have seen a lot more 10th graders, especially female ones, move away from pure math than follow that path.</p>
<p>As everyone knows, there is high correlation between math skills and musical skills. I doubt there is any college or university with a decent math program that doesn’t also have very good opportunities for high-level amateur music. It’s completely unclear whether the OP’s student is going to want, much less need, any more than that. It’s certainly way, way too early to be plotting a dual degree BS/BFA from a college like Hopkins or Oberlin that has high-level conservatory training as well as excellent math. Even if that were possible, which it may not be, not in the real world. (Again, many more people start dual conservatory/liberal arts degrees than finish them, and many more people think about starting them than do.)</p>
<p>GeorgiaTwins, To what degree is the student interested in pursuing music? You or her parents might want to check out the music forum to understand the process a bit. It is possible to pursue recreational music at many schools. There are also schools where it’s possible to double major with a BA music major. However, if the student is interested in pursuing music performance at a conservatory level, then the options become more limited and a double major is harder and will often require additional time in school. Some schools are more flexible than others with music performance double majors. Your post has generated recommendations for some of the top programs in the country. They are wonderful options-- if that is what she wants, she can be accepted and money isn’t a factor. However, music students generally are pursuing study with particular teachers. Yes, there are universities and conservatories that tend to attract the best teachers but some of this is dependent on her interest (jazz? classical? new music? composition?) and instrument.</p>
<p>Olin - lots of mathy stuff, but no math degree last time I checked. Lots of music for a science college of its size.
Harvey Mudd - lots of math, including math majors, and the availability of music within the consortium.
Case Western - small university with full math and at least a lot of music.
St. Olaf, as mentioned before.</p>
<p>Calculus in 10th grade is three grade levels ahead of normal (although taking AB instead of BC would leave the student “only” two and a half grade levels ahead, which is still unusually advanced). Such a student would normally be considered a top math student in the school.</p>
<p>Of course, not all students two or more grade levels ahead in math end up majoring in math (physics, engineering, computer science, etc. are often chosen). But for those who do, being so far ahead means that choosing a college with a graduate program in math is a good thing to do in order to avoid exhausting the math offerings too early.</p>
<p>I don’t know about where you live, but where I live it’s just not that uncommon for students to be several grade levels ahead in math, especially students from immigrant families with different expectations about math education. Plus, the American math curriculum is pretty repetitious; I’m fairly certain I didn’t learn a whole lot between 8th grade (a good algebra I course) and 12th grade (AP calculus). </p>
<p>Educationally ambitious students generally take calculus in high school. A 10th grader taking calculus may be a couple years ahead of the peloton, but not more than that. My daughter, whom no one in the world would describe as a math genius, took calculus in 11th grade, when she was ready for it in terms of her training. That didn’t mean she liked it, or got anything out of it. She mainly wanted to have schedule room for a non-math elective her senior year.</p>
<p>It is really interesting how much energy this thread is stirring up. </p>
<p>I think the question at hand is that some advanced math students are really brilliant and some are high achievers who are good at math. </p>
<p>I have a son who is really “good” at math - took AP Calc BC in 11th grade, got an A, and may be interested in engineering or some other math-related pursuit. But he’s not brilliant in math.</p>
<p>My other son took AP Calc BC in 10th grade, Calc II in 11th grade, and then two college math courses at a local university in 12th grade. The second course was a graduate level course. He never studied, never did the homework, did all the formulas in his head in class. The only work he did was the extra credit, which he did for “fun” so he could stay after class and have theoretical discussions with the professor. He easily got As in all of these classes, etc. Math is purely theoretical to him, comes naturally, and is a gift to him. It was not about achievement. There are kids out there like him who NEED advanced college level math, and will exhaust basic classes at an LAC or a college that will not challenge them. However, most kids like this are in the minority.</p>
<p>I’m actually interested in the music part of this discussion. What would people suggest for a student who is very serious about music, and wishes to keep playing in college, but who is NOT interested in a music major, much less conservatory? The student in question is likely to have top grades and test scores based on performance to date.</p>
<p>IJustDrive–there are a lot of really great schools out there with very good music programs for non-music majors. St. Olaf was mentioned and that would be a great option. What does she want to major in? Geographical area?</p>
<p>She’ll want serious academics, most likely sciences or engineering. Geography isn’t so important. While I wouldn’t rule out an LAC, I’m guessing she’s going to want a student body of around 5,000 undergrads (3-7K?)</p>
<p>Of these, 250,033 took the AP test as seniors, leaving only 80,518 who took the AP test earlier, or about 7.3% of the students who will eventually attain a bachelor’s degree, or about 2.5% of all high school students (but this may be an overcount due to double dipping with the two year AB-BC sequence used in many high schools).</p>
<p>Only 21,008 took the BC test as juniors, or about 1.9% of students who will eventually attain a bachelor’s degree, or about 0.8% of all high school students.</p>
<p>Those like the student in the original post, taking calculus as sophomores, numbered only 5,891 (3,951 AB and 1,940 BC). This is about 0.05% of students of who will eventually attain a bachelor’s degree, or about 0.02% of all high school students.</p>
<p>Of course, not all who take the test pass. On the AB test in 2011, 56.3% scored a 3 or higher, including 21.4% who scored a 5. The BC takers did better, presumably due to self-selection, with 80.2% who scored a 3 or higher, including 47.6% who scored a 5. It would not be too surprising if those taking the BC test before senior year tended to do better.</p>
<p>But it does indicate that being two or more years ahead in math is quite unusual, despite the recent rapid growth in calculus and AP test taking in high school.</p>
<p>I agree with JHS that’s it’s too early to think about which undergraduate school to attend.
I think it’s better to find resources to help the kid to explorer other dimensions of math while she is still in high school.</p>
<p>Summer programs at Canada/USA Mathcamp, PROMYS, Stanford University are places that kids who like math and music to hang around:</p>
<p>This student may be interested in a much larger school than you are anticipating. She will undergo a huge growth in maturity as well as academic skills by the time she applys to colleges. Huge schools are really a set of many smaller grpups- such as those in the math programs. 100 math majors in any given year provides more chances to have viable math groups than 5 or 10. Having the chance to meet many different professors instead of having all of one’s math courses taught by the same 4 profs… Plus, having many science and engineering majors available to have fun with or to change majors in is a bonus. </p>
<p>Interesting statement in cool…'s post. Eons ago calculus in HS was rare- but that 5th year math class had stuff that actually was calculus thinking in my case. Currently most HS’s in the country do NOT offer as much advanced math as a few are used to. This girl IS advanced.</p>
<p>It will be interesting to see what she ends up being interested in ten years from now and what path she chose. Kids grow up and change their passions.</p>
<p>wis75–back in the dark ages when I was in high school, all of the high schools around us had at least Calculus. I don’t know of a single high school around us know that doesn’t offer at least AP Calc BC and with dual enrollment options, kids can take even more advanced math than that. Maybe in very rural areas where there are only 100 kids in the entire high school it’s “rare” but for suburban and urban schools, that just is not the case. The girl is accelerated, I would hesitate to say she is “gifted” though.</p>
<p>My son will be a math major and is also a serious violinist/musician. He’ll be attending MIT in the fall. I’d also add Princeton and Vanderbilt and possibly Harvey Mudd, as well.</p>
<p>“What would people suggest for a student who is very serious about music, and wishes to keep playing in college, but who is NOT interested in a music major, much less conservatory?”</p>
<p>“She’ll want serious academics, most likely sciences or engineering”</p>
<p>I’d suggest a U like USC that has both a strong Music school,a strong Engineering School and Science program AND allows NON music majors to participate in any and all music groups on campus [audition is required of course] . Students at USC can Minor in many Music depts, in addition to any other Major USC offers [ the only hangup is usually class trying to schedule classes, which is why so many musically talented incoming students chose to participate in one or more of the 20+ music groups- 2 orchestras, USC band, small chamber groups., etc. etc, instead of minoring in music] . For those interested in Majoring in totally different fields- USC has a special program, the Renaissance Scholars Program, which encourages students to Major or Minor in diverse interests and majors, for instance Music and Biology , or Engineering and French, etc, etc…</p>
<p>USC also offers tip top students over 140 Full Tuition and 350+ 1/2 Tuition scholarships. NMF’s who are accepted at USC recieve
automatic 1/2 tuition scholarships. USC enrolls more NMF’s than any college except Harvard.</p>