colleges for non-intellectuals?

Parents Forum
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<p>But the OP’s son may not require vocational training. He may not want to be an electrician, pilot, auto mechanic, etc. He may want to be a business man, a politician, a music or movie producer, etc. NOTHING the OP has said has ruled any of those options out, and those are all degrees or fields of study that can be conducted at four-year universities.</p>

<p>Or, more bluntly, you are a pompous moron, one of the worst combinations feasible.</p>

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<p>Yeah, but most private universities would be wastes of money for the OP, and in my honest opinion, most of them are wastes of money altogether. The son can clearly get into some state schools in California, which will provide him with exactly the education he wants.</p>

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<p>BfloGal - Your son will only be a junior this fall and at the end of the school year, I think you will have a much better feel for what type of college will be the best fit. I applaud you for thinking about this so early. I wish I had found this site earlier. As you have probably figured out, this forum is full of opinions most of which are well intended.</p>

<p>My S1 has zero interest in sitting around discussing what the author meant when he wrote x,y or z or in having philosophical discussions. Does that make him unworthy of college or a lesser person? No it just makes him different than those who are pursuing a more liberal arts degree.</p>

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<p>“The son can clearly get into some state schools in California, which will provide him with exactly the education he wants.”</p>

<p>What education is that ? Perhaps I missed the post. Or perhaps <em>you</em> are the pompous moron, jumping to conclusions without any basis.</p>

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<p>"My S1 has zero interest in sitting around discussing what the author meant when he wrote x,y or z or in having philosophical discussions. Does that make him unworthy of college or a lesser person? No it just makes him different than those who are pursuing a more liberal arts degree. "</p>

<p>Lessor person ? Hardly
Unworthy ? No, but perhaps a poor fit.</p>

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<p>An education. The OP SAID that the son wanted to go to college, albeit that he didn’t seem to understand all the prerequisites. </p>

<p>So why on earth would you suggest a vocational school and then lump all those who went to vocational school together? The vocational school doesn’t cater to anyone but those seeking vocational degrees – who come in all sort.</p>

<p>My father was like the OP’s son. After getting his MBA, he started working in large companies, where he is doing more than fine now.</p>

<p>So the fact that you would even bring up vocational school is enough to justify my posts.</p>

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<p>I would recommend Vincennes University in Indiana. Although it’s technically a 2-year school, it’s got several dorms, a multi-building campus, lots of activities & clubs, theatre & music productions, sports teams, a real library, it isn’t the same as the typical community college but rather like a private 4-year school. They also have a lot of experience helping students like this… they have free tutoring, small class sizes, remedial classes, inexpensive tuition, lots of one-on-one attention, and actual professors teaching the classes (not assistants or grad students). They do have a few 4-year programs now also. If he isn’t motivated school-wise, they have a lot of vocational 2-year programs that give excellent hands-on training right from the very beginning, and if you’re looking at a transfer program in anything to do with the arts, they offer performing/experience opportunities that aren’t usually available during the first two years at a 4 year school.</p>

<p>It’s worth some consideration, 2-year school or not. They have a lot of experience dealing with exactly this sort of student, while offering the “college experience” at the same time even if you’re in a 2 year auto body technology program, etc. </p>

<p>Some just aren’t ready at 18, and there’s nothing wrong with that. A kid can be brilliant but unmotivated…but a year or so of maturing might change that. If he’s spent those years at a community college, at least he’d have some college credit and some experience. In those two years a lot of gaps can be filled simply by growing up, whether it’s in study habits, motivation, social skills, you name it.</p>

<p>ETA: some community colleges have transfer agreements with 4 year schools that could make it much easier for a student to get in and start as a 3rd year student than getting in as a freshman.</p>

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<p>Many posters have said something on the order of “the video game playing skate boarder will grow up and be able to handle the four year college”. How many kids have you seen come home or transfer to the CC because they could not handle it. Some kids just do not belong away at school with a price tag of $40,000 or $50,000. Is it worth giving them a chance…yes. Are you prepared to gamble and lose the tuition? Are you prepared to possibly have some problems with the kid who is there to socialize with other non-intellectuals? It really depends on what your philosophy is. Some people are better risk takers than others. </p>

<p>The purpose of the CC is to provide an education to a kid who for whatever reason is not going to a four year school. If your son wants to be educated he could do so at CC for a small fraction of the cost.</p>

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<p>Why would a person have to be an intellectual to go to college. One can be smart and quick learner without having lots of intellectual curiosity in them. And nowadays there are also lot of career paths there you really don’t need to be an intellectual and still need to be highly educated. For example my brother is an orthopaedic surgeon and quite good at that. He is not an intellectual and never has been. He is intelligent and very good with his hands but have never been too interested about learning for the learnings sake. Has never read anything that isn’t a comic or a sport magazine for pleasure. In high school he was really middle of the pack student and much more interested about doing sports and hanging with friends than school work. We are Scandinavians and schooling system there is a lot more forgiving for someone like him. After very average grades from high school he completed his military obligations, decided that he in fact wanted to be a doctor, studied for the entrance exam for medical school and got in and did rather well there and did even better when he got to the residency part. His career is perfect for him. And to be honest I know lots of other physicians, engineers, lawyers, MBA’s and so on who can not be described as intellectuals and who are very good at their jobs.</p>

<p>And to be honest I wouldn’t make too definite conclusions about a person’s future intellectualism when they are 14 or 16 year old boys (or 13 to 15 year old girls.) It is a time when many of them are mostly interested about the things more or less related to happenings in the area between their knees and ribs. Of course some are more intellectually bent also in those years but many are so taken away with things that are happening in their bodies and things related to their social status that their possible potential interest for more intellectual pursuits isn’t always so obvious.</p>

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<p>momma-three, I agree. I said something similar in my earlier post. </p>

<p>A student need not be an “intellectual” to succeed in college, but I have seen too many students who were not interested in school in HS flunk out of expensive colleges. A cc or gap year might be a good idea.</p>

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<p>I would suggest doing dual enrollment at a local community college while he’s still in high school. He could take one or two classes that interest him and also get a feel for what it’s like in college. See how well he does with that and then go from there before you spend thousands of dollars on the real thing.</p>

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<p>How many kids have you seen come home or transfer to the CC because they could not handle it.</p>

<p>More often( in my case) it is because they decided the expense of Barnard or Bucknell was not worth the differential between the opportunities at those schools compared to instate universities.</p>

<p>I don’t think you need to be an intellectual to go to college- you will find more “eggheads”. in certain types of colleges, &/or disciplines, but I think that the process of attending college is part of being in the middle class in this society- whether you then do something that doesn’t actually require a degree or not is up to you- but by not earning a degree- you are limiting yourself- ( not saying you can’t get one later- but it is much more difficult).</p>

<p>IMO college is not " to get a job" .You can do that by dropping out of high school, getting a GED and going to work at Microsoft/McDonalds.</p>

<p>But high schools are very uneven & it is more about graduation rate- then demonstrating knowledge- college is the place for many to learn what interests them, and hone their thinking process by testing it with their peers.</p>

<p>I cannot emphasize enough how much kids change the last two years of high school- it is really impossible to guess what he will be interested in 5 years from now.</p>

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<p>I’m so enjoying hearing everyone’s viewpoint! And I’ve heard from several sources (including emeraldkity, above) that kids change a lot during the last 2 yrs of HS. I so hope that’s true. Take this week-- finals week at school. Who is stressed? ME. Watching S do only cursory “studying” if any at all. And what little he does do is prompted by me: “Please look at your bio notes for 20 minutes-- PLEASE.” He really does want to do well, but he clearly doesn’t want to put in the effort. Or can’t make himself do it. He does only enough to “get by,” which basically means not fail. It’s so hard for H and me to watch, because we both have PhDs and value education highly. I keep waiting for something to kick in, for the light bulb to go on, for him to say “oh man, I actually do need to step it up.” Do I have to wait till he’s a Sr and everyone at school is talking about the colleges they’re applying to (or getting accepted at) for him to realize he has to make an effort?</p>

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<p>BfloGal, does your son have a job? There’s usually nothing like working at a minimum wage job to kick in academic effort. If that doesn’t work, restrict your son’s allowances (if there are any) so that he has to use all of his own money, or work with him to show him the cost of living. That usually helps. I know that the apathetic middle or upper income students here usually EXPECT things to happen to them, without ever realizing that sometimes things take effort (but don’t get me started on low-income equivalents!). I have no idea if that would be the case for your son.</p>

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<p>I agree that working a minimum wage job does inspire a person to take education seriously.</p>

<p>I would also take him to some cool colleges to inspire him, too.</p>

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<p>I know when my daughter came home from her expensive private college she did not announce to friends or family that she came home because of problems she was having. She told people that it “was not worth the money and she could obtain the same education at a state school”. I think that is what kids say to protect themselves from their upper middle class friends who are looking down on state schools. That is what I have seen first hand.</p>

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<p>OP - I too have a 10th grade son who is not highly motivated. In his case - it is the Playstation and Call of Duty that capture his attention - in addition to a pretty active social life. He gets As and Bs, and I would certainly not consider him an intellectual! He is not an avid reader or a great thinker. Pretty average good kid. </p>

<p>We are going to do a few college visits this summer to see if that gets him a little more motivated. I am hoping that he will see something or hear something that will make the light bulb go off and motivate him to work a little harder junior year. I work at a hs and this is such a common complaint from parents of boys - so don’t stress too much - most of them get in gear junior year. It’s the ones that still don’t give a crap by the end of junior year that you really have to worry about.</p>

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<p>We denied sophomore D the ability to get a driver’s permit or license until she brought her grades up. Oh how the effort improved! Our rationale…you want to be responsible enough to drive? Then you must be responsible with your academics. This one already says she knows what she wants to major in and where she wants to go to college (region); now it’s a matter of aligning her words with her actions and getting the grades to make these things possible.</p>

<p>She is very social and athletic…must work on her to keep the balance with academics as important or more important as the others.</p>

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<p>emeraldkity4 says
“IMO college is not " to get a job” .You can do that by dropping out of high school, getting a GED and going to work at Microsoft/McDonalds"</p>

<p>There is no way you can get a job at Microsoft with only a GED. Heck, even having a masters in computer engineering will not guarantee you a job at Microsoft.</p>

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<p>*We denied sophomore D the ability to get a driver’s permit or license until she brought her grades up. Oh how the effort improved! Our rationale…you want to be responsible enough to drive? Then you must be responsible with your academics. *</p>

<p>Oh, I agree. There’s no way that I would be paying for car insurance and providing car privileges for kids who aren’t getting good grades.</p>

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<p>OP:</p>

<p>I graduated HS with a 2.7. The only classes I cared about and got A’s in were my AP classes and science courses (which I loved).</p>

<p>I stayed up late, drank, played video games, hung out with skaters alot.</p>

<p>My mom would always put me down and act like I was the ‘difficult’ child compared to my high-GPA brother. She decided I was not worth the investment, and I was left to find out how to pay for my degree on my own - which I did. Instead, she hurtfully chose to spend money for rent and tuition on my brother, despite my requests for help.</p>

<p>Five years later I just graduated with an engineering degree that I paid for myself. I’m making far more than she did at the peak of her career my first year out of school. After highschool, my brother went off, spent a bunch of my parent’s money partying, dropped out, and is just getting back into college.</p>

<p>I’m just saying that you need to consider that some kids enjoy college alot more than highschool - and begin to ‘bloom’ in the college setting, like I did. If you expect him to to do poorly, it will only hold him back.</p>

<p>Smart highschool kids rarely perform the same in college. Same with dumb HS kids. The correlation is not as clear-cut as some would think.</p>

<p>----- EDIT: addition
Note that I am ‘stereotyping’ and these statements are not 100% correct.</p>

<p>As far as the 'video game playing skateboarder comment’s - I think nothing could be further from the truth. The videogame, skating, art, nerdy, and alternative crowds from HS seem to be the ones who really excelled in college. ESPECIALLY the video game players. I can’t count how many video game nerds I know that have science/engineering degrees, and countless scholarships that paid for those degrees. I sometimes play games online with a nobel laureate from my alma mater (he was my professor in three classes).</p>

<p>The people who dropped out were generally from the athlete, popular, and national honor society crowd. Of the NHS members in my class at my old school, I know one who has a college degree. Also, our valedictorian dropped out of college. College has a way of separating the *****<strong><em>ters from those who are capable of higher level thinking. Highschool seems to cater towards *</em></strong>****ters, and I think it’s unfortunate that many kids are misread by their highschool statistics.</p>