My daughter has been accepted by a list of schools including Brown, RISD, Cornell, SAIC, UC Berkeley and a couple of others. We visited the three C schools and narrowed down to the two. She was sort of leaning toward Columbia after the visit and now she is thinking of Cooper is the right one for her active art making.
The cost difference is not the determining factor here, though not totally irrelevant. I myself was influenced by a faculty at Columbia Visual Art. He is all about Columbia “I sent my son, my only son, to Columbia”. True Columbia liberal art foundation is hard to compare. The two schools are not all comparable. I could see she fits in both. She is trying to see if Coooer could defer her for one year but major schools may not defer a student for another school! Any insight is much appreciated.
No she doesn’t get to try out Columbia and then revert to Cooper! I went to (grad school) architecture school at Columbia and I have to confess I never saw any sign that Columbia had an art program at all. (That’s probably a function of architecture school - but at CMU for example - art and architecture are in the same building. As a part time artist myself, and an undergrad sorta art major (Visual and Environmental Studies) at a school not known for art, I can say it’s a lot of fun to go to an Ivy league school and end up in a small intimate major. Still you are buying into the idea of a core curriculum and an education that will probably require grad school to make you employable.
Cooper will give her a much more intensive experience. The one person I know who went there designs book covers and does more personal art on the side.
Thank you for your insight!! She has been longing for the intensive experience at Cooper. She couldn’t feel the intensity at Cornell. The department chair at Cornell said really good things about the graduate art program at Columbia but unsure of the undergraduate. According to the Columbia faculty, there is no distinction between graduate vs undergraduate classes, it is by the professor. Each of the class will have art students from different division and even students from other discipline. My thought is if a school has excellent graduate program - undergraduate students should technically have the opportunity to make the best out of it even at undergraduate level.
Her other thinking is - visual art is something that is natural to her. She should focus on things that she is better at. This is an input she obtained from an adjunct professor at Cooper Union.
"Columbia and Cooper represent very different approaches to art education. If one lives, breathes, dreams, sleeps, thinks in the spirit of art, Cooper is the place for such a person–but that’s a specific kind of person. If one wants an excellent overall liberal arts education with a major in art, then Columbia is the better choice. Columbia has a far greater range of departments to take classes in. Cooper, while it has a humanities component, is really almost exclusively focused on art. These things truly matter. "
My thought is - art making is a life long joy, what is the rush? Or perhaps how critical it is to have the “liberal art foundation at an institution like Columbia” at this stage of life, assuming you have the option available. Will going to Columbia really offers more opportunities as it seems or perhaps she will feel stuck. I am not a worried mom from the get-go! She made it happen all by herself through a public high school education and art is to a large degree self taught. I do feel that she may go on a different path in life from the choice she is making today.
Wow! Great colleges to choose from.
The bottom line is what is the likelihood that she wants to stay as some type of arts major vs changing out to any possible nonarts major. Many students change their major. At an arts college, she will get better arts training and the rigor of the arts classes will be higher, but it limits her from exploring other majors and/or eventually changing to an non-arts major.
So if she definitely wants to graduate with some sort of arts degree, she should choose cooper union, if here is any sliver of possibility that she might want to change her major, then Columbia or Cornell.
Btw, I’ve heard that the work level at Columbia is very interse and very difficult. Harder than HYP.
I would tend more toward going to Brown and taking classes as RiSD (based on my vague knowledge of both colleges as I have not been to either). Could attend brown to keep options open, but take very intense arts classes at RISD.
My DS wants to do an arts related major. He will be doing it at a non arts college to keep his options open for changing majors. If he loves it to no end and is fully commited to arts as a major, later will transfer to an arts college.
Did she get into the Brown/RISD joint program?
I’d have her consider the different environments of the two schools. Does she want more of a traditional college experience with a strong liberal arts core at Columbia or the very urban, smaller school experience of Cooper Union. There is no bad choice, they are just very different.
And I am pretty sure that you cannot accept at one school and defer at another. Your D would risk having both accepted rescinded if it is found out. She needs to pick one school and go.
Also, Cooper Union has no campus and, I believe, no dorms. It is the ultimate in urban college life.
Thank you all for taking the time to provide your insight. She is definitely art inclined but is quite capable of many others including writing, speech & debate among others though she knows many people naturally do better in these areas than she could. From what I see now, art will definitely be her major but could consider another discipline. Columbia offers double major but I don’t know the extent of work required. I think it is still through a 4 year program. Cornell now has half of the art students double major but that takes 5 years. She likes NYC. She didn’t get into the Brown RISD Joint Program and didn’t attend the Admit days at Brown/RISD.
She is fully aware that art student has to create their own job and essentially an entrepreneur! Some seniors she met at her Admit day clearly see “Cooper” in her. The deferral idea originated from the Cooper undergraduate director who she met from the visit but there might be some misunderstanding. She is open on that. I could see the challenge switching schools - the 1st year Cooper students basically do a home test on a weekly basis.
Financially, Cooper offers half tuition scholarship to everyone. Columbia - we don’t qualify for need-based. We narrowly escape the need-based but it is still painful to pay. I am the sole bread earner here. I am confident that I could support her but I am aware of the future ramifications that are yet to reveal!
She is aware of Cooper’s ultra urban and is not considering that as a big deterring factor. One of her friends chose Stanford over Cooper two years ago and was miserable for the 1st year thinking of transferring to Cooper. Eventually the friend stayed and is now happy though not making much art.
Long message. YoHoYoHo - I am with your DS. I am more for a broader based education and make that “no end” determination later!
Here’s one anecdote to ponder.
The daughter of a friend was an excellent student, good at everything, but lived and breathed art. Her parents, both scientists/engineers, just didn’t get it. They wanted her to get a liberal arts education with art mixed in. After considerable battling, she convinced them to let her go to RISD. She thrived. She loved it. Her parents eventually conceded that art school was the place for her. She graduated and is able to pay her rent (much to her parents’ surprise).
This girl would have been miserable at Columbia – the core would have been horrible for her. At a school like Brown, with its open curriculum, I could see an art-loving student finding a place, but I would worry that the Columbia core would make it very difficult to engage in art at an intensive level, at least for the first couple years. I don’t know enough about the core to be decisive on this, but it would concern me.
In general I am in favor of a broader-based education, but for some students, an art education is really what they need and want. If your daughter is at all like the girl I described above, then Cooper Union might be a better choice.
If money is an issue, especially for an art student, I’d go with the least expensive option.
I went to Cooper Engineering and have taken classes at Columbia, but it’s not so relevant. She really has to choose… Don’t broaden the discussion with decision deadlines looming. Hopefully you are fine with both schools.
Ask her:
1- Where does she fit in better?
2- How do art graduates fare at both schools?
Discuss her future expectations with her. When I moved to the village after I had kids, I was surprised by the number of artists that made good livings. Other have day jobs like teaching and seem happy with this.
It is hard to give advice (like it would be easier to change majors at Columbia or you can always go to grad school) to your child without sounding like you don’t believe in them or you are condemning their career plans. And the school that most appeals to you may not appeal to them.