<p>truazn, I hope I never claimed too much for the IITs. The top people there are the equivalent of the top at the MIT and perhaps there are more of them, just as you say. Somehow, it seems Indian educations squelches innovation. Subramanian Chandrasekhar was educated at Cambridge, CV Raman's physics prize is questionable, I don't know of other Indian Nobelists in the sciences. Sen was educated at Cambridge and so on.</p>
<p>I (and my son) identified undergrad rigor with USNews and Shanghai rankings plus SAT scores. What other measures would you recommed? Even by these flawed measures, the rigorous undergrad programs, CAltech, MIT, perhaps Columbia because of the core, all jockey for position at the top. St. John's has lower SAT scores, more classical undergrad but I have never heard it called rigorous. I would like you to offer some names of rigorous schools and also some schools where undergrads are more likely to be intellectually stellar. UChicago and Columbia have that reputation.</p>
<p>Speaking to Sac's comments, because USNews may not be the Economist does not invalidate the rankings. The rankings are flawed because they are flawed and not because the magazine is lower ranked. To the extent that Columbia insists on a common body of knowledge, the Core, it will perhaps turn out, like St. John's, the best educated people in this country. By education I mean someone coming close to the Renaissance ideals of humanism as articulated by Vasari in his Lives.</p>
<p>"It takes a generation or two for new immigrants to overcome the vestiges of colonial rule and to cease aspiring for the outward symbols of belongingness." </p>
<p>Um... it took me 6 months to get over it, so I don't think your statement applies to all immigrants. </p>
<p>"is tsinghua the same as qinghua or not?"
Yepp, and this might be random, but Columbia offers a study abroad program at Tsinghua. </p>
<p>"there are many graduates of top state schools who make it on wall street or in other highly competitive industries."
True, but "many" has to be seen relatively. The success rate of state school applicants is probably dismally low. It's no secret that most BBs care a lot about the prestige of colleges. </p>
<p>"The point is that the standards are higher and the burden of proof is harder to meet, not that it can't be done."</p>
<p>I disagree. It might be one of the points, but it's not THE point. There are plenty of bright students at all state schools. These kids compare themselves to each other and therefore push each other to a higher level, even though they are at a state school. A bright kid who could have gotten into an Ivy but choose to only apply to the local state school for whatever reasons will not suddenly slack off... The point is that going to an Ivy will open up many doors for you.</p>
<p>pearfire, maybe you are overestimating or being unduly optimistic. It takes a generation or two before immigrants' health and risk factors approach that of the receiving country; many immigrants' speech patterns never change. In college admissions, Harvard receives huge nos of apps from Asians and the yield rate from immigrant families is close to 100% implying they have not culturally assimilated to reflect cross admit patterns similar to the native population. In culture, diet, etc it does take a generation or two.</p>
<p>Maybe your standards or your yardsticks are different, maybe I am being unduly self-critical , but I wager that, if you are a recent immigrant, in many ways you have the old country and its attitudes deep inside you, for good or bad.</p>
<p>"In culture, diet, etc it does take a generation or two."</p>
<p>I'll have to agree with this. I'm not an immigrant even though my mom came here from Belgium. (not that this really matters. The cultures are barely different.) However, the school I go to (I know this is going to sound stereotypical and I really don't mean it to be racist if it comes off that way) is an engineering magnet school and thus, filled with Indians. All my best friends are either immigrants themselves or children of immigrants. Most of them don't have the leisures that everyone else has purely because their parents have not yet assimilated into American culture. And now that I think of it, they are not that better themselves. One has to assume this is because all of them live around each other and (imho) "sheltered" from American culture. (For example, one of my friends is not allowed to go to the mall because there are "bad people" there.) </p>
<p>So overall I think the amount of time it takes someone to adjust to the culture of his/her new country is affected by which country that person originally lived in.</p>
<p>good point, karen. But I assumed people knew that assimilation for someone from the tribal belt in Pakistan is different from the assimilation of someone from Sydney Australia.</p>
<p>Also, even for immigrants from a country, say India, in my case, it can vary. I went to a Scottish grammar school in India, grew up on Polybius, Dante and Erasmus. But I have cousins who studied in Tamil schools who live and work here in high positions but in mannerisms, speech, diet, leisure activities, superstitious beliefs, racial attitudes (most Indians are bigots by the way) may have never left India.</p>
<p>This is mostly true with all the Chinese I know. Just this morning, my uncle told me that I could date any girl that I want as long as I dont bring a black girl back. Luckily, my dad at least is starting to leave those things behind. However, my dad will NEVER let go of his Chinese food.</p>
<p>that's good that you're dad is getting better. </p>
<p>My parents wont leave their chinese food behind either but it's probably not the same type of chinese food you're talking about. We're just too lazy to cook so it's take out every night.</p>
<p>ramaswami, this might be off topic, but i'm impressed by your son, at least from reading your posts about him. what field do you want him to go into? (engineering, medicine, etc.)</p>
<p>very kind of you, reepa. He is Ok, discount the parental bragging. He can study whatever he wants; and study wherever he wants. I am merely his research assistant. Unpaid and unasked! He is planning to study engineering at Columbia.</p>
<p>General Tso will kill you with the artery-clogging prowess of his chicken!</p>
<p>Anyway the 'qings' werent made into 'tsings' in terms of romanization...they were first recorded in roman letters as 'tsings' under the Wade-Giles system...eventually the 'tsings' were made into 'qings' as most people switched from the Wade-Giles method of Chinese romanization to Pin Yin.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Ok, here's a reason to choose Columbia: I think its core curriculum delivers one of the best basic liberal arts education in the country.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'll drink to that (tsingtao/qingdao, of course ;))</p>
<p>I long for the day when my own uni institutes a Western core curriculum and pays homage to the very ideas that led to the creation of the university itself..</p>
<p>johnnyk, that was the best statement on the core I have read. I was brought up in India, no knowledge of the core, read Polybius and St. Augustine and Erasmus on my own, discovered that colleges like C and St. John's exist and encouraged my son to consider C where he is going. Then I hear about core bashing. You have offered the best justification for the core. Also, contrary to the polemics of minorities and women, etc, Shakespeare and Dante belong to those members of mankind who have taken the effort to study and imbibe them. They are not white or European ,etc, they embody humanity's best aspects.</p>