<p>"Columbians are not afraid of the world"--bold rhetoric indeed. Unfortunately for you, I study rhetoric, and reality paints a starkly different picture.</p>
<p>One attack on the subways upon which Columbia is dependent to connect it to the actual city of New York would leave it (and the city) crippled. Another follow-up attack would render it paralyzed as the parents who are actually paying for your education would be far more hesitant to send their kids to Columbia as opposed to Penn or Brown.</p>
<p>Tread cautiously, Columbia, for you are treading on fragile ground indeed.</p>
<p>As for Confucian Nemesis, the med school and athletic departments have been separate for CU for some time (with commensurate detrimental effects), but that is one thing, and separating, say the poli-sci or econ or any other major liberal arts department from Morningside campus is another thing entirely, and would have an undeniably detrimental effect on Columbia.</p>
<p>I'm afraid I have nothing against Columbia. Indeed, I would love to go there for J-school, or SIPA, or both. But from an objective viewpoint, I recognize that Columbia is heading down a path that will compromise some of its greatest assets.</p>
<p>And for now, that is not Penn's problem, it is yours.</p>
<p>Let the record state that I do not think any less of Columbia today than I do of Penn, when it comes to an undergraduate education.</p>
<p>However, the future holds different fates for Penn and Columbia, and the same city that has been an asset to Columbia will inevitably be a gross liability in the future. I wish Columbia the best and would love to attend it for grad school...but never undergrad.</p>
<p>I say 10 years- or less. Columbia is already pretty much acknowledged the 4th Ivy in terms of prestige. the "I-V" league was originally HYPC anyway. And interestingly enough... Harvard and Columbia before the 1960's were both considered the top schools in America with professors like Lionel Trilling, Charles van Doren etc. etc. and the Manhattan Project and splitting of the first Uranium atom right in PuPin. </p>
<p>If anything, I'd argue that Columbia FELL from HCYP 40 years ago and will eventually regain it's status as HYPC.</p>
<p>Let's not get caught up in numbers, 10 years, 20 years, who cares. It'll come eventually, let's just make sure that we as the class of 2011 will make our contribution to Columbia's increasing success.</p>
<p>"Yup. Manhattanville is just the business school and some administrative functions-- undergrads are staying put."</p>
<p>Then why the great concern about Manhattanville dooming Columbia? If you're not bifurcating the experience of the students from any college, really then why should they care?</p>
<p>Maybe because the Profs and TAs will be less "there" and available to undergrads, if their offices & research are in Manhattanville and the undergrads aren't?</p>
<p>If I had to rank the Ivy League, it'd probably go something like this...</p>
<p>Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Columbia
Brown
Penn
Cornell
Dartmouth</p>
<p>Personally, I think that the only thing that Princeton has above Columbia is the name brand appeal. The differences between either student body is trivial at best...that being said, both are equally capable of producing an equal degree of high achievers.</p>
<p>Name brand appeal aside, I think Columbia simply has more offer over Princeton as an institution...particularly in it's professional degree programs such as Law, Business and Med...all of which Princeton doesn't offer and are world class at CU. For anything that Princeton does offer...CU pretty much offers as well and is probably equal in terms of quality. </p>
<p>Someone else mentioned endowments and per student allowances...again, I think that's trivial since both institutions offer highly sought after FA packages. </p>
<p>In the grand scheme, I agree with whoever said that the best Columbia can perhaps do is it to add another letter to the top 3 acronym. That's pretty much all they can do at this point. Noone is going to think any lesser of HYP any time soon.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I bet in 20 years, it'll be HYPC instead of just HYP, does anyone wanna call?
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</p>
<p>I don't think the label of simply "HYP" (or HYPSM) will ever change. "The holy trinity," "The big three," etc. are used commonly throughout the world. But in the end, all it is is a label--don't stress over trying to include the "C"; Columbia is an awesome school regardless.</p>
<p>I wouldn't bet on the never changing thing. Pton wasn't always included in the holy trinity, either. It used to be HY and that was it. I can't see why Columbia can't do something which Pton has already done. Also, I don' stress over including a C but it's just natural that one wants the best for his college. Progressive thinking is the key, so are you saying that we should just become complacent and rest outside the "hoy trinity" without even trying to expand it?</p>
<p>I'm not sure what gloom and doom JohnnyK is talking about regarding manhattanville.</p>
<p>But first... "One attack on the subways upon which Columbia is dependent to connect it to the actual city of New York would leave it (and the city) crippled."</p>
<p>I didn't realize that Manhattan didn't have roads...</p>
<p>Regarding Manhattanville: The walk from Pupin to the corner of what will be the new Jerome Greene Science Center on 125th and Broadway is barely longer than the walk from Pupin to the undergrad dormitories on 113th street. Columbia will surely be crippled! </p>
<p>As of now, Manhattanville is slated to be home to the newly endowed Greene Science Center, the B-School (currently in Uris on the main campus), the School of the Arts (currently in Dodge Hall on the main campus), and a new science magnet secondary school in operated in partnership with the NYC board of ed. Over time more lab spaces will be built in Manhattanville to supplement and replace the cramped and old facilities on the main campus.</p>
<p>Lastly, Columbia HAS been growing in the neighborhood. The Religion department just moved into more spacious offices on the UTS quad (Columbia signed a long term lease for the building) and Sociology and Econ will be moving into an even bigger neighboring building in 2 years.</p>
<p>If you honestly think that expanding the spread of the campus by 7 blocks will destroy Columbia's "cohesiveness", I'd hate to see your opinion of any school which actually has space!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I wouldn't bet on the never changing thing. Pton wasn't always included in the holy trinity, either. It used to be HY and that was it. I can't see why Columbia can't do something which Pton has already done. Also, I don' stress over including a C but it's just natural that one wants the best for his college. Progressive thinking is the key, so are you saying that we should just become complacent and rest outside the "hoy trinity" without even trying to expand it?
[/quote]
</p>
<p><em>sigh</em>...you've missed my point completely. "Holy trinity" is now simply a label, because so many colleges are now on par with HYP in acedmic strength. But that label, which is now so common to our generation, is really unlikely to change.</p>
<p>I DO bet on the never changing thing. Ok...well unless one of them disappears down the road or something. There's even a book titled "the chosen," which talks about the exclusivity of Harvard Yale and Princeton in the beginning of the 20th century. Sure, it may have been "HY" as you put it, but that particular label did not spread so far as "HYP" has in our time period. Through the media, etc., the acronym is now commonterm around the world, with "HYPSM."</p>
<p>I am not saying to not want the best for your school, but I don't see why a great school as Columbia needs to worry about something so petty as being part of an acronym, or why wanting the "C" means "the best for his college."</p>
<p>i'll take it down in a few days because they normally charge for it, but feel free to download until then.</p>
<p>Edit: C07, the answer to your original question is in the paper. they control for things like proximity to home, parents' school / legacy, and schools with highly self-selected applicant pools like caltech and notre dame. read their methodology, I really can't summarize it for you.</p>
<p>also, nogardder, i downloaded it like 6 months ago and they didn't charge, but when i looked back later they had a $4.95 price tag on it. very strange. but hey, screw them.</p>
<p>Of course Manhattan has roads (and a bit of traffic as you may have noticed). I said an attack on the subway just as an example. The point is not to illustrate the vulnerability of the subway system (though vulnerable it is), but to illustrate the effect an attack ANYWHERE in NYC would have on the city. If NYC was attacked, there would likely be an exodus of people, and at the very least, no shortage of concerned parents who are not about to pay $45,000 a year to risk having their precious kids blown up.</p>
<p>The other, more disquieting prospect is that the terrorist attack is a rather large one that would do more than simply terrorize NYC--it would destroy it.</p>
<p>Does anyone know WHY exactly schools like Chicago, or even Dartmouth are tied with Columbia and Duke and Penn perenially ranked in front of Columbia? It seems fairly obvious to me that Columbia as a worldwide institution completely demolishes all of the aforementioned schools save UChicago for it's simply unparalleled economics department and pure research pursuits. But Duke and Penn or even Dartmouth.... ????</p>