Common Core or not Common Core? Good for college or not?

Parent Cafe
1

My daughter has 2 choices in our area for high school (she is in middle school and on the fence which high school to attend) and basically wondering which is better for college applications… She wants to go out of state for college (Purdue, Va Tech, type schools)

We live in California and if she goes to the public high school she would take Integrated math 1, integrated math 2, etc. All common core. Do most high schoolers do that or will that be unusual?

If she attends the private high school then they are traditional math. Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, etc.

Any guess which one is more typical with college applications?

Not sure what the other states do and think it would be easier to match what they do.

Any thoughts?

Jenn

2

Integrated math 1/2/3 to cover the content traditionally covered in algebra 1, geometry, and algebra 2 is not a Common Core feature. Before Common Core, some California high schools used integrated math 1/2/3 while others used the more traditional math courses. This appears to be the same after Common Core.

Both UC and CSU accept either sequence for the minimum math requirements (see https://hs-articulation.ucop.edu/agcourselist#/list/search/all ), but students intending to go on the UC, CSU, or other selective colleges ought to complete higher levels of math (i.e. precalculus/trigonometry following the completion of either of the above sequences; calculus recommended if precalculus/trigonometry is completed before 12th grade).

Why does she want to attend a large out-of-state public schools instead of a UC or CSU which would likely cost less? Is your financial plan in place to afford out-of-state public schools?

3

For what it’s worth, my high school used an integrated system (pre-Common Core) for math and there was absolutely no trouble with getting students into every type of school imaginable- including tip top privates and Ivy league.

4

It shouldn’t matter either way, but the integrated math approach is new and will have a learning curve.

Private prep schools generally have a better record of placement at upper level and elite colleges, and are far more accountable to parents, have fewer behavior issues, and the kids who attend them are more focused. The downside is that the $ spent might better be saved for college and they lack often some programs at public schools: special ed, elite sports, pools, etc. In general, private class sizes are smaller and the teachers are more motivated (no tenure) and you will get better college counseling as well.

Some public high schools are really good too, but they tend to be magnet or G&T programs.

I’d have your daughter visit and get her impressions.

5

Tooold: really depends on the private school and the public school. Not all private high schools are traditional prep schools. Some regular old suburban public high schools are very good as well. Some may well offer a better education than some private high schools. Not sure it is accurate to say that private school teachers are more motivated due to no tenure. Teachers in general are more motivated by wanting to be a good teacher, not coasting because they have tenure.

OP: the public high school should be able to answer your question about what is covered but I don’t think common core affects the high school math sequence. Kids still learn algebra, geometry, pre-calc and calculus. I can’t believe California would change that.

6

The integrated sequence has little to do with Common Core. Some districts in Calif have been doing integrated math and integrated science for years. (Personally, feels like another educ fad to me, and it makes it easier to rotate math teachers?)

But the easy answer to your question is to ask the public HS where its top students get accepted. If there are of top OOS privates included, then those colleges obviously see no difference in the curriculum. Of course, you can also demonstrate math proficiency on the SAT and Subject Test 2.

btw: while Purdue and VaTech are fine schools, what’s the rush to pay OOS tuition/fees when you have similar quality schools available in your back yard? (Engineering?)

fwiw: full disclosure, I’m not a fan of paying OOS fees to a public unless you are wealthy or the school is a big upgrade in rankings for the major that you are interested in. For not much more money, you could attend a private college.

7

I agree that either math program woudl be fine. As part of the process you can try to meet with guidance counselors at both schools to see where their students end up for college. In the end, I’d choose the school that is the best fit for your D – if money is an issue that would lead towards the public school route.

And as an aside, I’d caution you or your D against singling out a few specific colleges as targets before she even sets foot into HS. Things can change so much over the next couple of years.

8

Sounds like she is interested in STEM? In addition to the classes, look at what else the schools offer that may be of interest to her. Math team? Robotics? Science olympiads? Support for science fair projects?

Also, have you looked seriously at college costs? You may want to do this before spending a lot of money on a private high school you aren’t even sure is better.

9

Overall, it shouldn’t matter either way as far as college applications. They will see the highest level completed, and that should be Precalculus or higher. If you might have to move at some point during high school, that could be a consideration, as switching between the tracks might cause some gaps or duplication.

Do either of the schools have honors versions of their math strand? Our public HS has a compacted track where kids can take Math II, Math III, and Precalculus in 2 years. (A similar track compresses 7th grade, 8th grade, and Math 1 into the two years of junior high.)

The switch from the traditional to integrated math sequence became much more common in CA with the switch to Common Core, so they are somewhat related. However, Common Core concepts (more multi-step word problems, explaining your answer in words, etc) can be taught in either the traditional or integrated sequence. (http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/ccssmathstandardaug2013.pdf, starting around page 57)

Articles you might want to look at for the prevalence of each sequence include these:

http://edsource.org/2014/districts-split-between-choices-for-high-school-math/66169
http://edsource.org/2015/california-districts-moving-to-new-integrated-high-school-math-pathway/89288

If the private school is not only keeping the traditional sequence, but also keeping the traditional curriculum (fewer word problems, more drill), that might cause some difficulty when taking the SAT. (Though high-achieving math students, if she is one, are typically pretty adaptable to different types of challenges.)

I agree with mathyone that if she’s looking at STEM, you’ll want to see what options are available at the two schools along the lines of Robotics, Math club, Science Bowl/Science Olympiad, computer science classes, etc. In CA, the good public HS often have much better opportunities than the privates. It’s not like the Northeast; privates are often not better academically in CA.

Also, I’m not clear on why going out of state for Purdue or VaTech is the plan. My impression (CA native bias) is that they are about as good as a mid/lower-tier UC or an upper tier CSU. CalPoly SLO would be better and cheaper.

10

Also, both Purdue and Virginia Tech admit students to first year engineering; students must then earn a high enough GPA to compete to enter their desired engineering major. Most UCs and CSUs admit engineering majors directly to their majors (although some may also offer general admission to students who made the cut for the campus but not the major, which means that it can be very difficult to get into the major after enrolling).

11

My daughter went to an Expeditionary Learning school in middle school. It was a K-12 school, and the math for high school was an integrated math program. The math teacher was involved in developing the particular program they used. Kids from this school did go to Colorado School of Mines and other engineering programs, and the program did work for some kids. It did not work for all kids.

However, the math teacher’s own kids went to this school for k-8 and then went to the Jesuit high school because, when push came to shove, he wanted a much more traditional education for his own kids. (who were pretty good students).

12

My daughter and I have just started the whole college look and honestly she is NOT likely to go into engineering or serious sciences, definitely more humanities side. I appreciate the feedback about common core and the integrated math, good point that the new SAT and the old school math may not be as aligned. While lots may change in the next few years her personality is still very similar to what she was when she was younger. She loves working with children and enjoys working in my classroom with elementary age children. She loves working with her little brother who happens to have delayed speech, feeding issues and is on autism spectrum. She enjoys helping us set schedules/routines and providing support with all his therapy. Most likely for that reason she seems to think she would like to be a teacher, speech therapist (for speech or feeding) or behaviorist. From what I see she has very little chance to get into the colleges in the UC’s or preferred Cal States. She is a hard worker, but doesn’t excel like the rest of the competition. I recognize what tuition will cost and figure 4-5 years at a place out of state with lower cost of living vs, in state that may be 5-6 years and high cost of living may be worth it for us. We only have 2 kids and have been financially planning since I was pregnant. Not to say that things can’t change… She likes colder weather and would like to live out of state. We have realtives who live out of state and no one but us in California.

Thanks,
Jenn

13

It is way too early to be predicting that a current middle school student will be unable to get admitted to UCs and CSUs (and students who are unable to get admitted to UCs and CSUs may have a difficult time getting into those out-of-state flagships you mentioned, or earning high enough GPAs to get into their majors at those out-of-state flagships).

14

OP, if you are sincerely asking for our opinions, I have to say that when my D. was selecting her HS, we were not asking the question about her future college, we were asking the question about which HS was the best match for her personally. The unfortunate aspect of our struggle was that we disagreed with the kid. D. wanted to attend at one private HS primarily based on her admiration for their sport team that she was planning to participate and she knew that lots of her friends will be there with her. We wanted her to attend a different private HS that did not even have a team for her sport and was way more expensive. However, nobody was thinking about the college at this point. Choosing her HS was the most torturous and long process of them all in my D’s past. She basically 'glided" into college later and “glided” into medical school after. I believe that the right HS is extremely important and the decision should be taken with the most serious considerations, as you are apparently doing. I would just leave the college out of this decision for now and check which HS matches the kid and the family the best.
In our case, we prevailed, but it took very long time, I think over a year. D. said later that she could not imagine being at the better HS than the one that she attended, she thanked us many times over! Which proved one point (again!) ------mom is always right!!!
As far as college goes, D. graduated #1 in her HS class, she could apply to many elite colleges, but choose to attend at in-state public on full tuition merit award, in the selective program that accepted only 10 kids, so that worked out perfectly also. That is why I am saying, do not worry about the college now, make sure that the kid is at the place where she belongs and it will do the trick!

15

Thank you! My kid is still in the go with the flow phase but figure that isn’t going to last much longer. Both of the high schools in question are “good,” just very different…