The tl;dr on me is a barely above average high school student who has excelled at community college. I will graduate summa cum laude with a general studies degree after this semester with a 4.0 GPA… Will have two more degrees in May when I leave the college. I took 21 credit hours this semester, and am taking 22 next semester.
My self-confidence is at an all time high, and I’m interested in at least going through the pre-med motions as far as pre requisites and volunteer (in hospitals, I already have other volunteer time) go.
I’m hoping to be, and should be accepted by the University of Michigan - Ann Arbor for the summer semester as a Biopsych/Cognition/Neuroscience major. I am transferring 55 credits. As far as premed goes, I will have taken a Biology I class (includes a lab), an Anatomy/Physiology class (with lab), and a Physics I class at the CC. Will my taking them at CC negatively affect me should I apply for med schools?
I will have taken all other premed requirements at a good university. Second biology (w/ lab), year of chem (w/ labs), year of orgo (w/ labs), and second physics course (w/ lab).
As far as math goes, I know calc is not on the MCAT, but I won’t have even really taken a precalc. I took a stats class, which satisfied everything I needed for the CC and prereq for my BCN major at UM. Would I need calc for the second course of physics?
To add a question to the mix, I just read that UM’s physics 2 courses are all calculus based. Would it look poorly if I dual enrolled at a different university for one semester to get an algebra based physics 2? Or would I look math stubborn? It’s not a matter of I don’t think I COULD succeed, but rather why bother take the extra class or two in precalc (or similar) and calc one if I don’t absolutely need to?
Imho
You should try to take the hardest bcmp course in Umaa. As far as bio and Chem you took in the cc, you should take a higher level course in Umaa in addition to the II courses to demonstrate your ability to take on higher challenge.
Regarding physics your taking a non- Calc based course elsewhere is a strike to your application, it will be viewed as an easy way out. Remember, you will be competing with hundreds of Umaa premeds for admission and the adcomms know what’s available in Umaa. It will be at odds if you take them at a third University.
There are a few medical schools that require Calculus, so you might want to check the math requirements of the schools you might apply to.
Definitely take upper level courses in Biology at the 4 year school; you’ll be getting your Organic there, so that is good.
I believe the Physics on the MCAT is only at the level of Algebra based Physics. If it would take too long to get enough math courses to be able to do well in a Calculus based Physics 2, or if math is a weak area and could pull down your GPA with unnecessary additional courses, an Algebra based Physics 2 might be the way to go. Medical school admissions are brutal - around 60% who apply don’t get in anywhere - so the advice is to not take the perceived “easy way out” to look more competitive. But you also have to look at your strengths and weaknesses. I can only give an example of 1, my D who is currently an M2. Physics was definitely her weakness. She took Physics 1 at her college, which also only had Calculus based Physics. She killed herself to get a B-. She couldn’t stomach the thought of 14 more weeks of it so she took Algebra based Physics 2 at a local state college during a Maymester. Yes it was easier. She made an A. She got 3 interviews and 3 acceptances to med school. In one interview she was asked about Physics - it was also her lowest scoring area on the MCAT - and she was honest about how it was a subject that was a struggle for her.
But, this is only anecdotal evidence based on n=1, so others may have a different experience.
Thank you both!! The Physics I course is actually one I would be taking next semester (my last) at the CC.
Would it be advisable to try and find a distribution requirement to take at the CC in its place, take the Physics I as an algebra based at UMAA (or wherever), do as well as is possible, and then take Physics II elsewhere, where it is offered as algebra based?
Med schools prefer to see as many as possible of your pre-reqs taken at a 4 year college rather than CC. There is a common belief among academics that CC classes are less indicative of your potential than coursework taken at a 4 year college (where the competition is tougher and the work is usually more demanding).
I looked at the admission requirements for all the MI public med schools. A couple will not accept CC credits or will only accept them on “case by case” basis. Because you’ll be limiting your in-state options by taking physics at CC, I’d recommend you find another distribution class to take at the CC and take physics at a 4 year college-even if you don’t take at UM.
Now on to the question of math–
Only 1 (MSU) specifically requires 2 semesters of “college level” mathematics for admission. That school doesn’t require Calc, but does require College Algebra (or higher) and stats.
The other med schools have moved onto “core competencies”–which is AAMC’s new initiative that allows for alternate pathways for demonstrating one’s readiness for med school academics and eliminates traditional course requirements. One of the core competencies is “analytical thinking” which is
[quote]
Applies quantitative reasoning and appropriate mathematics to describe or explain phenomena in the natural world./quote
In some ways this makes your life easier, but it also makes it more difficult.
This issue now becomes, how are you going to satisfy this requirement? You can’t use your MCAT score as proof. So what are you going be able to point to to demonstrate this competency if you don’t take additional mathematics/stats coursework? I strongly suggest you go talk with pre-med advising when you get to UM and listen to their advice.
If you don’t want to take calculus, consider taking additional coursework at UM in biostatistics.
And a counter-balance to dheldreth’s story --both my daughters (as in N=2) took calc-based physics. (Required at their [different] undergrads for their majors.) Both had multiple med school admissions. (Both also had MCAT scores in the top 3-8% range and subscores on the physical science subtest in the 14-15 range.)
Med school admission is not a one size fits all proposition. This is partly why schools are moving to to competency-base admission policies.
I can see that math is probably your weakest subject.
As WOWM said, perhaps you should take Calc in the CC and establish the basis to work on Calc based physics in Umaa. This will be a challenge and if you do well (does not have to be all As), med schools will acknowledge that.
If you can’t do well with Calc in CC, then you should try to find algebra based physics in Umaa or elsewhere. It is highly advisable to complete all of your 4 year college courses in Umaa, nevertheless.
Umaa is not an easy school to do well, many of my relatives have been there, wish you all the luck.
@WayOutWestMom@artloversplus I wouldn’t say math is my weakest subject per say, just the one I am furthest behind in. I’ve taken two courses at the CC (Intermediate Algebra by test placement - received an A at 99.6%) and Stats (in now, will get an A at 98% or so).
I am probably one course (College Algebra) shy of being calc 1 ready, but (of course) College Algebra is nontransferable to UMAA and there is no equivalent at UMAA, with their lowest math class being calc one. Conundrum city here.
It’s not that I don’t think I could do well enough in math, just that it would take a year to catch up and be done with calc one, and if I could prevent this I would like to. If it needs to be done though, it needs to be done.
No conundrum at all. UM won’t accept College Algebra as a transfer credit because at UM that is considered below "college level’. NBD. Take it anyway so that you have the academic preparation you’ll need to succeed at UM–or at whatever college you land at.
You need a stronger math background than you currently have if you have med school ambitions. You’ll need more math to succeed in your chem classes at UM and you’ll need a strong base of knowledge in trig and polar coordinate systems if you want to pass physics–even algebra-based physics.
Instead of taking physics 1 at your CC next term, take College Algebra. For 3 reasons 1) It’s a poor idea to split a physics class (or any 2 semester course sequence) between different institutions because there’s a substantial chance that you will end up with gaps in the topics covered; 2) you really need more math if you are going to succeed in physics and upper level science classes; 3) you still need to demonstrate–either through coursework or data analysis-based research experience–that you have fulfilled the core competency of analytical thinking required by medical schools. One semester of CC stats isn’t going to do that.
I’m not saying you must take calc. Not at all, but you must take at least College Algebra.
I’m going to throw out an old chestnut here: Getting accepted to med school is a marathon, not a sprint.
Seriously, getting into med school is a long haul project. There’s no prize for racing thru pre-reqs as fast as possible. (In fact, trying to rush your way thru them will likely result in not achieving your goal.) I know you’re a non-traditional student, but that’s not excuse for trying to shortcut your preparation. Take your time & do this right. It’s important.
Not sure if Algebra is a prerequisite of Calculus. I have been out of academics for too long.
In my college days, I was young and stupid. One summer, I decided to take a whole summer in a much higher ranked school and found a course “Calculus II” and got approval from the college I was attending. I must thought all Calculus are the same. not knowing Calculus I is a prereq of II and I have never taken Calculus I. Just imaging the shock I had when I walked into the class? I was totally lost from minute one. Well, the instructor encouraged m e not to drop it, instead, he asked me to go to the office hour and catch up! I had to cram Calc I and II in a SUMMER session. I was working day and night for that and at the end I was able to get an A for it. But by now, I forgot all those stuff already.
“Applies quantitative reasoning and appropriate mathematics to describe or explain phenomena in the natural world.”
@WayOutWestMom this does seem to make it more difficult, because it is so broad. For example, at Ds undergrad all Biology majors had to take a Biology based research & analysis course before moving on to upper level Bios. And the statement above is exactly what the course was about - using quantitative reasoning, math including statistics, with simple Biology research projects (the natural world) so they would all have those skills for their other Biology courses. But this was a Biology course, not a Math course. It will be interesting to see how they determine that these competencies are met.
The purpose is to get away from traditional coursework based requirements because the number and variety of courses at colleges are proliferating wildly and naming any particular course as fulfilling a requirement is counter-productive and limiting. There are likely a variety of courses at different colleges that would fulfill this requirement. For example, at D2’s university, there’s an upper level ecology class that is basically all observation & data analysis of animal & plant population changes over time. Courses in research methodology–like dheldreth’s D took–would also fulfill the requirement. So might a biostatistics, bioinformatics, computational biology or even some applied comp sci classes.
The new core competency also allows for student who have fulfilled this requirement through hands-on experience instead of coursework. Conducting an independent research project or a senior thesis project could fulfill the requirement. So could working for a year or two in a research lab/clinical project where the applicant has substantial responsibilities and contributes more than just data collection and support services. Publishing a basic or applied science paper would satisfy the requirement. Even conducting & publishing a retrospective review on a topic or case study might satisfy the requirement.
Note the requirement is not limited to just biology-based phenomena, but the"natural world"–this opens up research/coursework in linguistics, social sciences (sociology, anthropology, psychology), public health and mathematics, as well as physical sciences like chemistry and physics.
It’s going to be interesting to see how med schools put the new core competencies into practice. They may make for a more diverse & interesting applicant pool.
@dheldreth Though the course your D doing is a Biology course, it may meet the requirement of Stats. See if there is any other stat course required in the list of courses your D’s pre-med office publishes to confirm.
In my D’s school, the pre-med course list publishes a req for Stat and list 4 courses PSY 2113, BIO 2913, ECON 2843, Math 4753. All are the same content of Stat with the case study emphasis on the respective domain area (with the exception of Math where it expects more R programming language being senior (4) level course).
In general it appears, MD (and MCAT) req perspective, Stat course is more vital than Calc per se (there are exceptions where many MD schools has a Calc req). But both Calc and Algebra are vital (and pre-req) for Chem and Physics courses which are mandatory for MD and MCAT prep. Also it may help students later if they decide to do medical research (Ph.D).
^^ True, D is finished with that phase of medicine! And she did have 2 semesters of Calc, so was fine there, I just found the competency interesting, could be very broad. I agree wowmom, it may lead to medical school classes with a more diverse pool of talent if there are more ways to “check off the boxes” for admission.
When I was in college I knew some students who wanted to go to med school. One quarter the only class they took was Organic Chemistry, and they spent all their time studying for that one class. I was told that a good grade in Organic Chemistry was important to get into med school.
Nowadays, only taking ONE class would not look good to med schools. They want to see that you can handle a full load.
The exception might be a married parent who is working full time during the day, and taking a class at night. Traditional students are supposed to be demonstrating that they can handle a full load.
Taking only one class would be a big red flag. If anything, take some lighter courses at the same time so that at least you’re taking 12-16 credits at a time.