<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>So do a number of other colleges. Harvard grants a full year worth of credits for 4 AP scores of 5 on many (though not all) AP tests and 3 scores of 7 on IB tests. It used to be scores of 4 or 5 for AP and 6 or 7 for IB until just a few years ago. Nonetheless, though a very high proportion of students (perhaps the majority) qualify for Advanced Standing, few make use of the option.</p>
<p>Well I definitely agree with that!! Although some would argue that Rice is a better school :-P</p>
<p>Xiggi - you missed the most important part, although you posted it.</p>
<p>"What is your policy on AP classes, IB classes and college classes prior to coming to Smith? </p>
<p>A maximum of one year (32 credits) earned through any combination of AP, IB and college credit may be used for application toward the Smith degree. Credit may be used only (1) to make up a shortage of credits incurred through failure; (2) with the approval of the administrative board, to make up a shortage of credit incurred as a result of dropping a course for reasons of health; or (3) to undertake an accelerated course program.</p>
<p>In other words, conditions 1 or 2 do not apply at admission. You can't plan to use them; you can't even ask that they be used upon admission. Condition #3 applies, with specific permission of the department. In each case, my d. would not have been permitted to use them for credit, and, also in each case, neither the AP exam nor the college credit could be used for advanced standing, as each department required its own exam. She did submit them (as do all students), but no students (in these departments) were permitted advanced standing without the college's own testing.</p>
<p>In the sciences, the policy is that no one can use AP, IB, or other college credits toward standing. However, they do have accelerated or enriched sections in Biology (and I think in chemistry) for those who score a "5" or over 730 on their SAT IIs.</p>
<p>Marite, I realize that Smith is not unique in this regard. It does, however, remain one of the most liberal in its granting of credits. </p>
<p>Regarding the policy at Harvard, while being quite generous, I hope you'll agree with me that it is also a bit more complex as students need to qualify for "advanced standing." I have no doubt that you know the policy much better than I do. :) I am posting a link to the MULTIPLE pages that discuss in greater detail the policy at Harvard. </p>
<p>Mini, thank you for the clarification.</p>
<p>Xiggi - I tend to agree with your point in general. The ONLY reason I am trying to decide between CC and AP is educational value. In all frankness, I think (and have read) that the whole AP system is suspect and out of control. I have read that there has been movement among top colleges to stop accepting AP credit, especially for calculus, because students are failing in great numbers at the next level math class.</p>
<p>The only reason I'm even having to consider either choice is that my S's school has run out of challenging cirriculum choices. I want to help my S be prepared as best he can academically, even if it is to the exclusion of being best prepared for the admissions game.</p>
<p>"Well I definitely agree with that!! Although some would argue that Rice is a better school :-P"</p>
<p>Touch</p>
<p>Go5878, please do not get me wrong. You ARE doing the RIGHT thing. When looking at admissions and colleges, we really only have the option to react to what is out there. We do not create the system and we have to deal with its quirks and injustices. That is why finding the correct information -as well as reading about experiences of others- is so important. </p>
<p>Then, at times, we may start musing about what could be a better system. Most of us have a pet peeve: be it SAT testing, AP classes, weighted GPA, rankings, essays ... name it. I know that I have several! I also realize that voicing opinions about changing the system always ruffles a few feathers. When speaking AGAINST the development of AP, I realize that a student who sweat blood and tears while working through 10 or 12 AP will be upset about what I write. The nature of a board such as CC is that we share opinions and viewpoints that are forced to be limited. We share our personal experience without the benefit of a global view. But that is also the beauty of it, as we can be correct locally, but so wrong for another part of the US or the world.</p>
<p>We've had the discussion about the relative merits of CC vs. Ap courses before. I totally concur with Texas that the quality of a course depends on the teacher rather than on the label. We also need to distinguish between credit and placement.</p>
<p>On the issue of credit, I instance the case of Harvard because it is most extreme. It only grants credit for scores of 5 for APs and 7 for IB, but it is more generous than many of its peers in the kinds of APs it gives credit for. For example, Princeton only grants half credit for AP-US History and AP European History. It also requires that the APs be distributed among the 3 major areas (humanities, social sciences, math and sciences). Harvard, I believe, has no such requirement. At the same time, however, it is most rigorous in not recognizing ANY college course, including its own, for credit. So a student aiming to apply to Harvard AND securing Advanced Standing, would be better off taking AP classes. This, despite the fact that many profs at Harvard and elsewhere are quite critical of the AP curriculum and pedagogy.</p>
<p>This does not mean that college courses are not useful. A student who has taken MV Calc does not have to re-take it. Upon admission to Harvard, ALL students are expected to take a math placement exam, though that exam covers only materials through Calculus. Further discussions with the Director of Undergraduate Studies are necessary to determine which level of math a student should place into, should the student wish to take further math in college. Another wiggle is that while AP Biology is eligible for credit, all students who wish to major in biology need to take the introductory biology course anyway. </p>
<p>From the point of view of admission, I would expect that both AP and CC courses would be equally impressive as to the rigor of the curriculum pursued.</p>
<p>Jay Matthews, education writer for the Washington Post, has published a number of articles about AP courses. Here are some links:</p>
<p>"Why Colleges Think They're Better Than AP":
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63182-2004Dec14.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63182-2004Dec14.html</a></p>
<p>followup:
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25693-2005Feb15.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25693-2005Feb15.html</a></p>
<p>AP teachers who emphasize collegeboard pedagogic form over substance destroy the love of learning. From my limited experience, AP is one of the worst inventions of American education.</p>
<p>another option for students interested in having AP scores for either admissions or for credit is to self-study. It isn't that hard to do because the material to be covered is so well defined and there is so much material designed specifically for the exam. Basically you can study the subject however you wish (and however most fosters your "love of learning"), just making sure that you've included the AP topics and looked at some practice exams. My son covered 10 AP subjects this way, with excellent results on the tests and no courses of any kind.</p>
<p>I'll go for that.</p>
<p>As I mentioned in a post on a similar topic some time ago, I asked this question of an admissions dean at a top tier university my S was considering. I was told quite matter of factly that regardless of the quality of the CC courses the admissions committee had no way of evaluating them. The recommendation was to take HS courses, AP if available. The committee knew most high schools and could better evaluate the student from the HS record.</p>
<p>My D's school actually offers AP-Dual Credit classes. If she maintains a B or better average she gets CC Credit...and the class is structured to prepare the students for the AP Exam. At her school, not all AP classes are AP-Dual, but every year, they add a few more.</p>
<p>idad, there is no question that taking AP courses is better for admissions than taking regular college course for the reasons that you noted. However, I have found, based on my post 14, that actual college courses usually will have a better chance of obtaining credit.</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, I have found, based on my post 14, that actual college courses usually will have a better chance of obtaining credit.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And I have found the opposite. My S did not get credit for ANY of the 9 courses he took at the college he is now attending. He got credit for 4 of the 6 APs he took (the maximum he could get credit for). Many other colleges will only give credit for college classes on a case-by-case basis rather than as a matter of course as they do for APs</p>
<p>Getting credit for AP courses is not guaranteed. My son, at Brown, entered with 3 AP courses. (Yes only 3 and he got into Brown, imagine that!) He scored 5 on all the tests. He was given credit only for the one AP class that preceded a more advanced one. The other AP classes were not counted. He took one college class and got credit for that at Brown, easily. I think you people may be overrating the value of AP vs. CC or college credits. But I suppose it depends on the school. Clearly Brown is different than Harvard. Brown would have given credit for the Harvard college credits but NOT the AP courses. My advice is to do what interests your son.</p>
<p>Marite, this is why I stated in post 14 that "each school has their own peculiarities. Some may be better in accepting AP credits and some may be be better at accepting actual CC college courses. You do, however, need to check the school's policies regarding cc vs. AP credits for each school that you are applying to."</p>
<p>However, I still stand by my statement that, as a general rule, it is easier to get credit for CC courses than that of APs. Schools usually place limits on AP credit and require higher scores.</p>
<p>Here is the AP policy from Marlboro college, an up and coming LAC:</p>
<p>"Marlboro College will grant 8 credits for Advanced Placement Examinations with a score of 4 or 5. A score of 3 may be granted credit only after the approval of the faculty member in that area of study"</p>
<p>I called them up out of curiousity and asked them about CC credit. They noted that they will give credit for all courses taken at community colleges with a "C" or better grade in the course,as long as there are equivalent courses. Granted this may be on a case by case basis, which is based on the equivalency of offered courses. However, if the CC courses are taken in basic gen eds such as psychology, economics, philosophy, speech,calculus,history, sociology etc., there shouldn't be a problem.</p>
<p>Again, kids must check out any school's policy that they are applying to.</p>
<p>yeh i guess so but i want to ask one thing. I took Calc BC and am taking multivariable calc and matrix algebra. I had an A in Bc and have an A in multi, yet i feel that i haven't learned the material in-depth. I don't think i've went through the neither rigorous proof system nor the deep relationship it has to higher level math. If i get credit for these classes and AP classes i ahve a five in but still feel i could learn more should i forsake my AP credit advantages and retake them in college?</p>