Comparison of calculus tracks (124 vs 124H vs 134)?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Washington
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<p>Can anyone tell me the difference between the regular (124/125/126), honors (124H/125H/126H), and accelerated honors (134/135/136) tracks for calculus?</p>

<p>About all I can tell from the course catalog/time schedule that the honors classes are much smaller and are offered only once a year, and that the 134 track covers two years of material in one year.</p>

<p>What is the relative rigor and workload? Which math track is best for an engineering major planning to also study upper-level chem and physics (possibly double-major or minor in these)?</p>

<p>How does one place into the honors courses other than AP exam? What if you have self-studied calculus but not taken the AP exam? The UW math placement exam covers only precalc, so can that be used to place into honors calc?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>Just take the regular series. The honors and 134 series are mostly for people who are extremely good at math and want to major in it (most likely). If you’re going for engineering, the regular series will be just fine.</p>

<p>Not sure about your other questions, you’ll probably want to talk to someone in the math department.</p>

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<p>124H is just a faster track of 124. For engineering majors, you can waive math 308 if you take the 134 track since they cover it towards the end of the year.</p>

<p>Talk to advisers; are you in Honors? My friends just signed up for the Honors (and 134) tracks by talking to Honors advisers about it.</p>

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<p>Is the 134 and 124H tracks graded on a similar curve? Because if the 124 curve was used in 134, then a mensch could end up with a 3.1 just because everyone else was all savant as well.</p>

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<p>@Azwolg, speedsolver: thanks. Actually, I am the dad of a student who is a prospective UW Academy applicant, so yes, he will be in Honors. This is a kid who scored a 5 on the AP Physics exam in 9th grade. So part of what I’m trying to discern is the level of rigor of the math/science honors courses at UW, since he wants to take the hardest classes he can find, which means Math 134H, Phys 134B, Chem 145; perhaps even the Math 334 and Chem 335 upper division honors series. These do look like very rigorous courses, but how do they compare in rigor with corresponding courses at MIT or Caltech?</p>

<p>Or perhaps my 16 year old son will find that he is in way over his head with these honors courses?</p>

<p>@XaivFM: this is a very good point. Given the small class size and the fact that there is no reason to take the honors courses other than an interest in more depth of learning (the standard classes satisfy the same prerequisites and grad requirements), what would the reason be for grading these classes on a curve? Or are all UW classes curved?</p>

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<p>Oh! An acad applicant! Great program, great students. I’m friends with a lot of Robinson Center students … so much that incoming students sometimes add me on facebook and ask which acad class/year I’m in. I’ve also had experience with Summer Stretch back in middle school, and I can say that the staff there is amazing.</p>

<p>Okay, back on track. For his first quarter, he should probably take at least one easier class if he was planning on taking those courses. Although he scored a 5 on the AP exam (great job btw!), he might be slightly overconfident when comparing just AP courses and college courses. He probably will also want to ‘ease’ into university life, even just a quarter. Of course, he may also be completely capable of destroying the curve here. :)</p>

<p>The difference between the ‘regular’ courses and Honors or Advanced (like Chem 144, I think? as opposed to 142/145) is that there is a lot more in depth learning as well as work. The students you’re with will be sharp and intelligent. They have <em>chosen</em> to take a step up in their course choice… which means they’re probably as confident as your son (even with a bit too inflated ego sometimes!) about their abilities to grasp concepts and do well on exams. This being said, the grades will come down to the curve. If a student is at the top of the class, s/he’ll most likely get a 4.0 or 3.9. If s/he’s two standard deviations below the median, it’s a failed grade.</p>

<p>I’m not sure if we (on the forum) can compare the rigor of those classes to ones at MIT or Caltech.</p>

<p>Most classes are graded on a curve. The median for INTRO courses like Math 124 is usually around 2.6-2.8. Not all classes are graded on a curve though! Some classes may have almost everyone get a 4.0 or everyone barely passing. Usually for math and science, there is a curve, <em>especially</em> intro courses, which serve as a weed out for engineering and premed students.</p>

<p>Also, one word of advice for your son: In the intended major, put majors with direct admit programs that he <em>may</em> be interested in. EE? CS? MechE? BioE? Foster Business? etc… If he is accepted to acad, he gets into that major as a direct admit, at least for engineering and foster. If he wants to change majors later, so be it, but he will have this great option in a very, VERY competitive major. If he doesn’t know what he wants to do, take a look at all the different options and narrow down to something that he might be interested in.</p>

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<p>speedsolver, many thanks for the helpful advice!</p>

<p>The problem with the honors courses is they are offered only once a year, starting each fall. So S was thinking of just honors physics the first year and get some humanities requirements out of the way, plus CSE142/143 and MSE170, then dive in fall sophomore with the honors chem, honors math and more physics – no rush since he is starting two years early, anyway.</p>

<p>S has a pretty strong first choice of MSE (nanotech research), with CSE as 2nd choice, both of which have direct-admit programs. Are you suggesting he put more than two majors on the app, and that if he doesn’t get his first choice, he might be direct-admitted to a second or third choice major? Or are you saying put one major and he <em>will</em> be direct-admitted by virtue of being an acad?</p>

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<p>The typical policy for the normal 124 sequence is to place the median depending on the quality of the overall class. So the median can be set anywhere from 2.5 to 3.0 depending on the quality of the overall class as a group. They even go so far as to tell you, straight up, that if you don’t get above 80% on the exams you’re at risk of failing.</p>

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<p>@OP:</p>

<p>Your son can also start at the highest level honors course, then drop down to advanced or even just the normal course if he feels more comfortable there.</p>

<p>You can unfortunately only put two intended majors on the application, so choose wisely! Looks like MSE and CS (or CE, easy to switch back and forth during your first year though!) will be it. Yes, by being an acad, you’re an auto-direct admit. :slight_smile: However, last year was a weird year… BioE didn’t have a direct admit group even though all other years they did, so acads got their second choice direct admit. I know a lot of acads or eepers choose to come into UW through the RC programs for )99%) guaranteed admissions into departments such as CSE.</p>

<p>For example, CSE usually takes about 30 direct admit students every year. My year, there were 32; the 30 ‘normal student’ direct admits, and 2 acads.</p>

<p>CSE142/143: I’m not sure about next year, but this year they are offering an Honors option for the classes (I did the Honors option for 143 last year). Basically there will be an extra 1 hour ‘seminar’ with the teacher where you discuss social issues and fun random things in CS that you won’t be talking about in class. As long as you show up and contribute, you get an “H” (Honors) stamped next to CSE 14X in your transcript.</p>

<p>I also highly recommend taking CSE 142 in Fall and 143 in Winter. The class lecturers are different (Marty Stepp and Helene Martin co-teach 142/Fall, 143/Wi, who used to be a Garfield HS teacher versus Stuart Reges teaches 142/Wi, 143Spr) and while all teachers are great, most students love the teaching styles of Marty and Helene for intro classes more than Stuart. I think that Stuart is very well suited for higher division classes, but he also revamped the intro courses at UW after coming here from Stanford.</p>

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<p>@speedsolver (I’m going to hijack my own thread here): since you know several acads, do you find that they are happy with their UW acad decision a few years later, or do some regret that they didn’t wait and apply to other colleges as well after finishing high school, i.e. wonder if they might have gotten into MIT, Harvard, etc?</p>

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<p>A girl I went to middle school with applied to the early entrance program and was accepted. She then turned it down and is now at Stanford after completing four years at the local high school.</p>

<p>I don’t know of any acads (or eepers) who are unhappy. If they are, they don’t show it. The great thing about the acads are that they are very driven… and <em>usually</em> know what they want to do (ie med school, comp sci) and thus want two years step ahead of their peers. </p>

<p>Of course, some probably wonder what would happen if they had waited and applied to Ivy’s and other great schools. I never really hear it in conversation though. </p>

<p>The only draw back on going to college early, which I believe is just an all around ‘going there early’ and not associated with the UW Acad program at all, is that sometimes, students find a new ‘calling’ and thus start majoring in multiple fields, changing majors, or trying to figure out their life path a few years down the road, which leads to them sometimes staying at UW for more than 4 years. A friend of mine who is a 21 year old Acad … so this is his fifth year, I believe… is a quadruple major. And he’s still not really sure what he’s going to do when he graduates. He might go to grad school or join the industry somewhere, but he doesn’t know.</p>

<p>However, there are some acads who graduate at 19 or 20 and head off to great jobs. One of my friends is 19, graduated two quarters early (after Fall 2011), and is a full time engineer at Facebook down in California. </p>

<p>So in the end… it’s really how the student makes of the experience in the end. Most of the time, I couldn’t <em>really</em> tell the difference between an acad and regular student sans who they hang out with, their slightly younger facial features (goes away after a while… once I thought a 17 year old was 21 >_>), and sometimes they are a little more shy.</p>

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<p>Thanks for taking the time to give another thoughtful response, speedsolver. I appreciate it!</p>

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<p>No problem! Best of luck to your son and his future, whichever track he should choose! :)</p>

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<p>After poking around in the web sites of the math depts at UW, Caltech, MIT and a number of other schools, I found some answers to my questions about rigor of university intro calculus courses and thought I would share my findings in case others are trying to choose a math course path.</p>

<p>What I found from looking at past exams and homework is that UW Math 124 and 124H appear very similar – same textbook, cover the same material, except the 124H section has smaller classes and some slightly harder problems.</p>

<p>There is a much bigger difference between 124 and 134. Whereas math 124 focuses on practical problem-solving, much like AP Calc BC, math 134 offers a more conceptual approach to math, with more rigor, a harder textbook, Salas, and requires proofs rather than mere solutions to problems. Proofs in mathematics will be a new concept to most high schoolers, but this approach leads to a deeper level of understanding of the concepts in calculus as opposed to merely applying formulas. Another difference between 124 and 134 is that 134 is accelerated and the pace it goes at is likely to make it even more difficult than the rigor of the material. The math 134 professor’s syllabus states that you should take this course only if you already have a very solid foundation in calculus.</p>

<p>Now, to compare UW math courses to other universities, I looked at past exams and problem sets at some really tough schools: MIT, Caltech, U. Chicago, and University of Toronto. </p>

<p>Caltech requires all incoming freshman, regardless of major, to take a rigorous, proof-based calculus course using a textbook, Apostol, that is harder (more theoretical) than the one used in UW 134. </p>

<p>MIT has a range of intro calculus courses all a bit harder, but basically similar to UW. In general, only theoretical math majors tend to take the proof-based intro calc course at MIT, which is very similar to (same textbook as) Caltech calculus. But the other intro calc options at MIT are not proof-based.</p>

<p>U. Chicago and University of Toronto both have courses that use the same textbook (Salas) as UW math 134, and at these schools, this proof-based course is designed for all science majors. These two schools have an even harder course for the hardcore math students that is more theoretical – uses Spivak as textbook, which is similar in rigor to the Apostol text used at Caltech and MIT.</p>

<p>So, bottom line, based on the textbook and exams, UW math 134 looks like a great course for anyone wanting a solid, rigorous math foundation with a good balance of theory and practice, much harder than 124 but not so theoretical that it is only useful for math majors.</p>