Of the Big Ten schools, aren’t Northwestern and Michigan (out of state) quite expensive and may have similar cost or debt issues?
Thanks collegemom3717- he has visited Illinois and is interested in Michigan as well. I agree, both would be great choices and would not compromise grad school prospects at the vast majority of schools. I believe his current reasoning is that since we can afford Illinois, Minnesota or Wisconsin, why would he go to some other school he perceives as being lower rated, even if it’s a full scholarship. Plus, he may well get some small scholarship at schools like Illinois and Minnesota, making them very affordable for us, too. Schools like Michigan, Berkeley and Princeton are a reach with loans and small scholarships. Stanford and Chicago are probably out of reach unless a miracle occurs, but Chicago is close and he has legacy at Stanford so we are visiting it on the same trip as Berkeley.
I had assumed Duke and Johns Hopkins were zero merit aid, but in a quick search I’m seeing that perhaps that is not the case, though it seems a long shot if he was even accepted. Those would be great additions to his list if he even has a chance to qualify for as much as a half-tuition scholarship. Boston U is another that wasn’t on my radar. I think Stony Brook and Penn State qualify like many others under the “Why go there when I can go to Illinois” reasoning, though they are also great schools in Physics and Math. Thanks for the suggestions!
And no, I have no proof about graduate admissions at the very top schools, only conversations with counselors and admissions personnel and personal experience with people I know looking for jobs and schools. If it’s not true, that’s great. But I’d guess that if it was possible to procure a list of undergrad schools for recent Harvard physics grad students, the majority would be from Ivy League, Stanford, MIT, CalTech, Chicago and other top tier private schools, plus a few from the likes of Michigan, Berkeley or Illinois. I might place a bet on that list placing more undergrad students at Harvard Physics PhD program than all other public state universities and LAC combined. Yeah, Harvard is exclusive, but it may well be a door more easily opened by attending another very top tier school.
blossom-
No, I haven’t decided anything, and yes, he might decide to do something else altogether. He’s considering grad school, a teaching degree and other options. That’s almost certainly why he’s looking at schools with a good reputation in all three fields of interest to him and probably other fields. I wish I could clarify more for you, but I can’t at this time. Right now, I’m just looking for a few more ideas for him to consider for applications. These other spinoff debates are interesting and all, but as you said, lots can happen with what he decides over the next couple years.
usbalumnus-
Right, Northwestern and Michigan are more expensive and from what I gather, almost no chance at significant merit aid. That’s why Illinois, Wisconsin and Minnesota are more likely, especially since he’d probably be invited to their honors colleges as well.
thumper1- this probably doesn’t qualify as proof for my generalization, but here’s a list I found on Google of Harvard PhD theses since 2000. I don’t see Wisconsin or Minnesota represented at all. Meanwhile, Stanford and Princeton are both very well represented. Yes, I know theses aren’t the same as grad school admissions, but there must be some correlation.
https://www.physics.harvard.edu/academics/phds
Interesting for discussion, but it’s only a discussion. If he ends up in the Harvard PhD program some day, I will probably not care that much about what route it took. I’m not trying to lock him into anything. I was just asking for a few more ideas of top schools that may offer him merit aid. Really. I hope he picks a school he really likes and that he can attend without debt. For now, I want him to have as many strong options as possible. Adding a few choices to his list that may give him scholarship options seems reasonable to me.
There are tons of good schools out there beside Harvard. Sure Harvard is wonderful…but there are plenty of STEM majors who never set foot on the hallowed halls of Harvard and have very successful careers.
I am not sure it is valuable at all to compare the whole physics and math professional world to Harvard. It just isn’t where it’s at for everyone. Sorry…it just is not.
Your son seems to have a good head on his shoulders. He likes the schools he likes, and you say they are affordable. How many schools do you want him to apply to? 6, 10, 20?
Again, I would suggest he add Pitt to his list.
Pitt, Case, and make sure you’ve run the NPC on the need only schools with your most recent tax return before deciding what you can and can’t afford among the Princeton type schools.
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“Obviously, some of those give zero merit aid if he even applies and is accepted, so he could have $100K or more debt after 4 years. That will be his tough choice to make, of course.”
Except it won’t be his choice, because he can’t take on that much debt.
No, it’s not. But it was just a theoretical question asked about what doors a degree from a school like Princeton might open. This particular one seemed more likely to me. But Wall Street isn’t a reach, either. They do recruit physics and mathematics grads for high paying jobs developing derivative securities, analyzing market behavior and other complex modeling.
I’m thinking 6-10 seems reasonable? I don’t know what he’s planning. Essays were not my thing and I wouldn’t expect him to write any to schools he would never want to attend.
Anyway, Illinois is one. We expect Minnesota (affordable) and WashU (legacy) to be included and he seems to agree at present. The rest are up to him. I’m hoping a couple are affordable options I might help influence. If he wants to include a few reach schools based on tough admissions and high cost, I have no issue with that, even just to see if he is accepted.
I didn’t realize when I posted that, but I do now, thanks to an earlier comment about direct student loan limits.
Please please please…do NOT make your child apply to,schools “just to see if he will be accepted” esoecially if they are unaffordable.
What happens if he gets acceoted to a $70,000 a year school as a surprise…and decides that is where he really wants to attend? Will YOU take on the extra loans he will need…because as noted upstream, he can’t do,that himself.
I’m sorry…but I strongly believe that applications just to see IF you will be accepted when you don’t plan to attend are a waste of time on all parts.
It’s better for your kid to spend his time applying to schools where he actuall CAN and WILL attend if accepted.
Of course not. That’s up to him. I’d rather he spend the time looking for third party scholarships than writing essays and apps for schools with no chance at all. Maybe if he can secure some of those smaller scholarships, he can bridge the gap to some place like Michigan with summer jobs, internships or any extra we can put in. But I also wouldn’t forbid him from applying to some reach schools that he thinks he might really like to attend, even if the cost is likely to be a hardship.
I’m not the college application task master here. I was just looking for a few more schools to put on his radar. Honest. I guess my original post came across the wrong way perhaps, but I do thank you all for the good suggestions and appreciate any others, too.
If you want to save money to use for grad school, have your son apply to University of Alabama. He will get a great scholarship there, and they have excellent STEM facilities.
The application and scholarship applications are easy and quick to complete. They are available usually late summer…and the admissions decision…with merit aid…comes very quickly. It’s nice to have a sure thing up front in the process.
Op- I know nothing about your finances.
But from what you have posted, I suspect that you might be in the “We would do it for Princeton but not for BU” camp. I.e. you’d take out a HELOC, a parent that is now working part-time would go full time, a parent working full time would moonlight as an SAT tutor, you’d sell great-grandma’s Cartier earrings that nobody will ever wear but are sitting in a safe deposit box because you don’t want to pay to insure them, etc. Or whatever your particular brand of “hardship” (your term) happens to be.
You aren’t alone. But as a veteran of CC I beg of you- come clean with your kid. Every April there are sad stories where kids post that they have fallen in love with XYZ school and their parents NOW say they can’t afford it (and XYZ isn’t always Chicago or Johns Hopkins- the most recent thread I read was a kid in love with Pace who needed huge loans to swing it.) If you don’t qualify for need based aid and know your financial limits in terms of savings, current income, what you are (or are not) prepared to borrow, AND have a list of schools which you don’t think are “worth it” however you define “worth it”- tell your son. He can then decide that he will apply to X college knowing that if he doesn’t get the top merit award it’s not happening. Or can take them off the list and not invest another minute in thinking about that college. But I’ve seen enough on CC to realize that keeping that list in your back pocket is a big mistake.
I had such a list. We were full pay, and at the first GC meeting when the suggestions from the counselor starting coming, I quickly wrote down my list. We had a family meeting where I explained to my kid that MIT full pay- yes- we were prepared to do that. Random private U which had an engineering program but cost the same as MIT- No- that’s what state flagships are for (and he ended up applying to a nearby state’s U- better engineering school than our own flagship but still cheaper than private). I was not making a value judgement on these other universities… just pointing out that for our family, there were sacrifices we were prepared to make and those we were not.
re: “any extra we can put in”- define that number for your kid. You may say that and he’s thinking 10K- you’re thinking an extra plane ticket so he can come home at Thanksgiving. Lay your cards on the table. You will have a MUCH easier senior year if you are transparent with your son about finances.
Do this before you even start touring colleges.
It’s really easy to fall in love with a Tesla when your budget is a Honda Civic.
We were also full pay. But we had other criteria in terms of colleges. For us…it was geographic. We wanted our kids either within a 3 hour drive from our house, or within 1 hour of a close friend or relative. They both created their lists with that criteria in mind. And neither kid applied to any school that we all didn’t agree was a go if they got accepted.
But all this was done up front.
I doubt colleges would let a student take out 100k in loans on their own… the most I’ve heard of is 5k/year. You’d have to cosign the loan, which means it’s not only his choice.
There is no way a student can take $100,000 in loans in their name only. Either the parent takes out the loan, or,the parent cosigns the loans in excess of the Direct Loans.
But what this family wants is merit awards at good schools.
I’m going to echo @thumper1 on Pitt. My son targeted schools with specific programs (bioengineering but also with good math programs) and with good merit. Our kids understood for many years through many conversations that we would pay the cost of the state flagships or equivalent.
Pitt ended up on that list along with a few others. He’s a high stats kid plus has completed lots of college math (calc series, diff eq, linear, real analysis) while in high school.
Pitt offered him full tuition last fall - it was his first acceptance. They ultimately offered him a full ride, and he’s happy to be heading there this fall. He’s proud that he’s earned that full ride. His second choice (Northeastern) would’ve cost us ~$20k/year and we were willing to pay but he chose Pitt.
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That may prove to be the case once we see what options he actually has, but for now, parent loans are not part of the picture. I think it is pretty clear to him, but will definitely reinforce it before we start sending out his test scores to the top contenders after our visits over the next few weeks.
Right. As I stated previously, I didn’t realize the direct loan limit until it was noted earlier in this discussion. This will definitely affect the options.
I agree about Pitt, and maybe consider Penn State Schreyer too. Not a whole lot of merit money (the last I checked it was about $4,500 a year) and Penn State is very expensive, in state and out, but compared to full pay at an elite school, it might end up being a good value. Schreyer is one of the top-ranked honors colleges in the US and its grads do phenomenally well.
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Thanks to both of you- I had somehow overlooked Pitt on the first page of the NRC Physics ratings. Plus, it’s an easy flight and a drive that we can do in 8 hrs, 'bout the same as Vanderbilt. As a public school, it also wasn’t on my radar for full scholarships for out of state students.