Competitive Scholarships at top Physics/Math schools

Paying for College
41

OP- my point is that you don’t know what options he has until early April which is FAR too late to have a transparent discussion about finances.

Princeton- I have heard from family members and acquaintances that their final fin aid package is within $100 of what their NPC predicts it will be (assuming you don’t have a complicated non-custodial parent situation or own a small business). So there is zero financial risk applying to Princeton- run the calculator, and you can either afford it or you can’t. BUT you don’t know if your kid is getting in until April.

BU- their top merit awards can move the college from “it’s a stretch” to “Wow, what a generous offer”. And with a high stats kid your HS Naviance data might show you that NOBODY with your kids stats gets rejected from BU, assuming they show appropriate love and interest. So very low risk from an admissions perspective. But you won’t hear about merit aid until late March.

“I think it is pretty clear to him”- what is clear to him? That you are prepared to pay 45K per year regardless of where he goes? That you are prepared to pay 60k per year for one of the following 8 universities but only 45K for the following 12 universities, and only 20K per year for these five schools? It seems like this is what you’re talking about. If so- don’t let him do the math (he won’t get it right) and don’t let him get invested and show the love in a college which you aren’t prepared to pay for.

The trick of all of this is that you just don’t know what options he has until a few weeks prior to when a decision needs to be made. That’s the thing. So kicking off the process with unrealistic schools (not that he can’t get in- but that he is likely to get in thinking you will pay for it if you won’t) is what leads to trouble.

I can point to about a dozen kids in my community who ended up with Plan Z (when Plan A, B, or C didn’t work out due to finances). To a kid the difference between your out of pocket cost of 30K or 50K can be bridged with magical thinking. If you can swing the 30 but not the 50 you need to put your cards on the table.

42

I think Penn State, Maryland and Ohio State are in the camp of great schools, but not likely to be cheaper than Illinois and not necessarily rated any higher. I guess it depends a lot on how many he will put on his final list to hope for a long shot at a generous OOS scholarship. If they are common app and he doesn’t mind an extra essay, maybe he will.

I’ve seen the public university honors website. Have you seen any information on how difficult it is to get into honors programs and earn any relevant merit aid for OOS students, say at Penn State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Maryland, Minnesota, etc? From what I’ve read and heard, he has a good shot at Illinois to get in the honors program and earn a small scholarship, making it a bargain for in state tuition. Minnesota seems pretty generous with awarding in state tuition to OOS high achievers in the honors program from what I’ve seen, so that could be a relative bargain, too.

43

@collegemom3717, I think you missed Harvey Mudd on your list. One problem with the rankings you are apparently using is that they are grad school rankings. OP, Mudd has some merit scholarships, but they are highly competitive.

44

Do not be like this parent, who wrote “Money is not a factor in the decision” during the summer between the student’s 11th and 12th grade:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1789885-best-schools-for-math-comp-sci-with-undergrad-research.html

Only to decide in March that the student’s top choice school that he was admitted to (EA) was too expensive after all:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1866912-need-advice-on-college-choice-etc-p1.html

45

For sure.

There are some complicating factors with financial aid and our contribution, but it will be a good exercise to have him put the costs in a spreadsheet so we are all on the same page.

46

Right- I’m not fond of using NRC or USN grad school rankings for undergrad. Obviously, they don’t even include excellent LAC that may be exceptional at providing a good education in these topics, perhaps better than many state flagships. The same with smaller private universities that offer professors focused on teaching classes, rather than leave it to a lecturer and a TA, like many of my classes in the first couple years at UIUC, I’ve explained many times that these rankings don’t mean what he thinks they mean, but that’s all I can do, lacking some other more relevant yardstick and hope he uses it instead. I mean, many parents use such rankings without knowing anything other than the ranking itself. It’s a tough thing to break once you see such a list published from a respectable entity.

47

Would your kiddo consider applying to Rhodes? H would likely get a decent scholarship…and plentiful research opportunities there. Their grads go on to great grad schools.

48

OP, have you seen this?

http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/

Probably more relevant than the ranking of grad school programs.

49

I’m not familiar with UIUC’s honors college, but Schreyer is uber selective, at least for freshmen:

https://www.shc.psu.edu/documents/about/annual-report/annual_report_1415.pdf

50

DS graduated last year with a major in physics and minor in math so I am very familiar with getting into grad schools. Undergrad name does not matter! Getting into physics grad programs is all about research, letters of recommendation and GPA. DS applied to 12 and was accepted to 10 grad physics programs. Most of them in the top 20.

Researchers at FermiLab (where DS has done research) told him undergrad doesn’t matter in getting a position there or at other national labs.

51

@intparent, I agree that Harvey Mudd is a superb choice- the merit options are challenging but possible-- and also completely agree that using grad school rankings is a poor way to choose undergrad. But, the OP seemed to have given up on his son basing his choice on any other metric, and to have a narrow view of what the ‘top’ programs are I was trying to give some perspective on who is ‘top’ in those areas.

@illinoisx3, one of the reasons that I gave the specifics was to help you show your son just how little agreement there is between four of the major rankings systems. For example, Stanford is #5 onUSNWR, and #16 on NRC. At my Collegekid’s small, LAC (not quite top-tier, and not particularly known for physics or math), the expectation is that students should be looking at PhD programs in the top-10, and certainly in the top-20- and that is indeed where they end up.

As @ChowdyCat (& others) have pointed out: your undergrad really does not determine your grad- esp in science/math!- as much as your research experience, etc. In fact LAC students do well at getting REUs, which are an important coin of the realm.

52

Not at the present time, but maybe after we visit Grinnell and Macalester he will reconsider LAC. Funny thing though, my daughter is already thinking pre-med and scholarships and Rhodes came up as I guess they have some research opportunity with St Jude’s that she heard about.

Yes, and similar statistics compiled by members here. Exactly why I’m hoping he likes Macalester or Grinnell. Chicago looks good, too, considering how much larger it is than many on these lists, since the list is a percentage.

Yup, we have colleagues at Fermi and Argonne and while undergrad may not be a factor, grad school reputation certainly plays a part. I suspect, like everywhere, it depends a lot on the hiring manager. Of course referrals and research and other factors play a bigger part than the name of your school. But all else being equal, a top tier undergrad can help you get into a top tier grad school, as evidenced by the Harvard link earlier. And that can help you get a top tier post doc, then a job. But as far as I’m concerned, all the schools he is considering are top tier or very close enough for undergrad.

I think this will all work itself out, I just want to make sure he has a couple options for LAC and schools that will offer him merit scholarships, just in case our circumstances or his preferences change 10 months from now.

Seriously? Far from giving up, the whole point of this thread is to encourage him to consider other options, perhaps a few I may have missed. The side discussions have gone astray a bit, but the same question from the OP is the point, “Any other schools I should put on his radar?”

Just because his filter seems narrower than mine doesn’t mean I’m giving up. On the other hand, some kids love schools because they have the best parties, or best dorm food, or nicest quad, or a good friend is attending the school, or a host of other factors that cause them to get invested. In the grand scheme of things, grad school rankings and perception of top programs aren’t any worse than a lot of these for a 17-year old. Part of my job is to give him options and expose him to a few different types of schools, which is why I asked here.

53

Thank you all for some great suggestions. In particular I’m having him compile a spreadsheet of schools with costs and expected contributions and possible scholarships so he can see the numbers, along with whatever other data he wants to add. I will definitely have him add some suggestions from this thread- thanks again for the links and tips!

54

So my Physics major kid (who had very strong test scores, they like that at UChicago) was offered a small merit scholarship at UChicago. But not much, $5K.

55

Thanks! We know another family who had a child with similar resume as ours that received the same amount in scholarship, plus a summer internship worth about the same. That could make the difference if he gets another small scholarship independently. Chicago is one school we might consider tapping into business or retirement equity if the numbers end up being close enough. We were very impressed on the tour and I think it’s currently his top school as well, but obviously very difficult for admissions. Did your kid end up attending Chicago or where did they choose to go if I may ask please?

56

She turned down Chicago and Swarthmore for Harvey Mudd, which she loves.

57

He’s definitely on the Swarthmore printed mail spam list. I can’t recall seeing one for Mudd. I know it’s a tier down, but I had encouraged him early on to keep Lawrence (WI) on his list, but unfortunately I think Grinnell is the only LAC he’s even remotely considering at this time. I hope they give a good tour! We’ve seen his scope broaden a bit as some of his friends are looking at different schools, so maybe all it takes is one to consider one of these other fine schools for him to take notice.

58

Lawrence was my kid’s safety. Cheapest with merit money in the end, too.

59

I think he considers UIUC as his safety now, though it’s also among his top choices. We were sure he was a small college kid at the start of this, but he now seems to think a big college is best for him. Not that I can criticize as I did fine at UIUC, but wish I had visited other schools and had other options to consider. At least he will have that.

60

When considering your willingness to stretch your budget, consider whether you would be able to make a similar stretch for younger kids in a similar college choice situation.