Competitiveness of IB Diploma?

Parents Forum
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<p>After searching this forum and reading through many discussions on IB vs. AP, my questions are still not answered, probably because the situation is a bit different. So, please forgive yet another post on the topic.</p>

<p>My daughter has been enrolled at a UK International School in full IB program since last year, was attending US school in the States before. She is currently a 9th grader. Her school does not offer any AP courses, IB program is all they do and have been doing for 20+ years (primary years through Diploma). Results of their IB exams have been very good historically. The problem is that the students are typically taking only 3 HL courses and 3 SL. As far as I know, only HL courses are recognized on par with AP at selective colleges in US. How will her college application compete with other kids, who took multiple AP courses? Should she consider taking AP exams on her own, through self study or online study? I'm just concerned that her credentials will look relatively weak with only 3 HL IB courses, as if she didn't challenge herself enough by taking additional AP exams. Although full IB Diploma is a lot more than just a sum of IB exams, I'm not sure it will be taken into consideration by admission commitees. Any advice, please??</p>

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<p>Adcoms are well familiar with IB.</p>

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<p>For admissions purposes, IB alone is fine.</p>

<p>U.S. students in IB programs often take AP tests as backups, but they don't do this primarily to enhance their chances of admission. What they're doing is attempting to get college credit for their SL courses (some of which are on a par with AP courses) or for particular HL courses that a specific college does not give credit for. Among the IB students I have known, it is relatively rare for anyone to actually self-study for an AP test; they don't have time for that sort of thing. Instead, they take AP tests after completing a similar IB course, usually with no special preparation, just to see how they do. For example, students who took IB SL Environmental Systems might take the AP Environmental Science test just to see whether they can score high enough to get college credit. Sometimes, they succeed. (Obviously, this is best done at the end of senior year, after college admissions decisions are made, so that a low score on an AP test can't hurt the student's admissions chances.)</p>

<p>Tell your daughter that she's lucky to be in an IB school. She may not feel lucky in her last two years, when she's up to her neck in work for the IB Diploma, but she will be glad she was in IB once she gets to college. </p>

<p>My daughter and many other IB Diploma graduates feel that they were exceptionally well prepared for college -- far more so than people who merely took a handful of AP courses. It is very common for IB Diploma graduates -- even those at some of America's top universities -- to say that college is easier than high school. IB teaches you to plan your time, to write coherently in an academic style, and to deal with a myriad of regulations, paperwork, and deadlines. All of these are skills that a college student needs. Your daughter will almost certainly have an easy transition from high school to college because by that time, she will have been doing college-level work for a couple of years.</p>

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<p>I can't give you any general information on your question but my nephew grew up in the UK and went to a school with only IB. He didn't take any AP exams, just the IB, the SAT and two or three SAT IIs. He and another student from his relatively small class are both at one of the top three LACs. Some others are at Harvard. Lack of AP didn't hurt them.</p>

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<p>When it comes to the IB program, the different colleges out there either give credit for IB scores or they don't. My daughter received approximately 12 credits for her IB test scores. That was almost a full semester. Her best friend received 28 credits. She basically had her whole first year wavered. Other schools on the other hand don't give any college credit for the IB classes.</p>

<p>One thing we have come to notice with my daughter; 3 years ago; and my son current is; Just about all schools have a place on their application for where a student marks if they took AP classes or the IB program. Almost any college that is highly competitive for entrance is going to ask that you have taken AP classes or the IB program.</p>

<p>Now, which one is actually better is a matter of interpretation. The IB program is not available everywhere. In the United States alone, I believe that it's approximately 500 high schools. Most high schools have some AP classes. What most colleges/universities like about the IB program compared to the AP classes, is that AP classes are advanced in a single area, while the IB is an entire program. Some of the leading colleges won't give college credit for IB or AP, but that is one of the minimum notches that most of the applicants have so it makes you competitive. Plus, it is so challenging that when my daughter entered college, she found it extremely easy compared to many of her friends who had no IB background and are also in college.</p>

<p>I've spoken with many admissions departments about AP vs IB. No school penalizes AP students for not taking IB. Most of the time it's not available. But they will penalize if either is available and the student isn't taking one of the two. They did say that while it appeared that IB didn't have but the possibility of 3HL classes and 3SL classes, (I was concerned also with this), that it wasn't a big deal because IB is an entire program. The student is also doing 150 CAS hours; (Creativity, Action, and Service). They are spending a lot of time helping others and learning to be creative. This is part of the "Whole Student" package. You don't get this by taking AP classes. There is still a lot of people who mock the IB program. Mainly because they don't have it or that the teachers have to be certified separately to teach it. Also, it's an international degree. (Which very few students in the IB program actually pass and receive the degree). By the way, you don't find out if you actually received the degree until the fall, so you've already started your freshman year in college. But some schools will give you even more college credit for the degree. As well as the opportunity of it being accepted overseas should you want to go to college in a different country.</p>

<p>So, if your child is in the IB program and likes it, then that is all you should worry about. You have to find balance for them. Do NOT let them be some sort of academic mole. No college or University wants this. Many schools don't give any college credit for AP or IB anyway. The IB program makes well rounded students. It's also an internationally based education. They also have volunteer hours as well as being creative with the arts or whatever. That is all part of the CAS hours. Now, get your kid involved with clubs, sports, causes, etc... Have them achieve leadership status in many of these EC such as president, captain, etc... Make sure it's stuff they like to do and are passionate. Have them study hard and do well on the SAT/ACT tests. Everything will be fine.</p>

<p>My son is getting ready to graduate high school. He has been in the IB and pre-IB program since 9th grade. He has applied to a total of 7 colleges. We've gotten the last of the applications back. He has been accepted to all seven. Some very good and well know schools. Some of the schools are FULL RIDE OFFERS. Some pay for all of the tuition and books and we only have to pay for dorm and food. 2 We are waiting on the scholarship portion of it. My son has narrowed it down now to only 2-3 schools, but the reason for applying to all 7 was because we didn't know what early admissions or acceptance was going to result in. It was good to my son. </p>

<p>The point is, he has NEVER taken even 1 AP class. He did excellent on his SAT/ACT tests. Not perfect 2400 or 36, but very good. He has a 4.0gpa unweighted. His class ranking is as good as it can be. He has played varsity sports for 3 years. He's been in the national honor society. Boy's state. Who's who. Quite a few other recognitions. He is a well rounded student. That is what colleges are looking for. Yes, it is very important to take challenging classes. But they prefer a challenging "Life". The IB program is definitely a more advanced program overall than individual AP classes. But most schools don't have the IB program and the colleges know that. But every student can belong to clubs, sports, volunteer hours, community and civic service, etc... That is what they want to see. Good luck to you and your kid.</p>

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<p>To me just to be able to take Theory of Knowledge with an excellent teacher made it worth it. Like Christcorp said, it's the whole program and not the individual classes that makes it competitive.</p>

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<p>My understanding is this (and please, someone correct me if they know I'm wrong): adcoms look at the student's record in light of their HS context. From the GC's information provided on the app, and the college's own collected wisdom, they know what options are available to a given student at a given school. </p>

<p>They are looking for a student to have taken the most challenge course load available in their particular HS environment. Thus, it's not held against a student if their school doesn't offer AP courses or only offers limited ones.</p>

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<p>^^^you are right</p>

<p>I think there is more of a problem when the school is small (relatively) and it offers the APs/IB to a limited number of students. Then when they look at the school, it shows that they offer the courses but your s/d didn't take them, and it's not because you couldn't handle it but because somebody else got in first. I don't know how the universities manage that. For IB it may be different because you have to be on a certain track since middle school (pre-requisites you have to take) before you are accepted into the program.</p>

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<p>D went to a school that did not have an IB program; as I perused her college choices and looked up what kind of credit or placement they would give for her AP courses, most of them had one chart for AP credit, and one for IB---they looked very comparable. It appears that most kids who have the choice pick one or the other, but rarely take both...there's just not enough time in the day.</p>

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<p>Usukmom, My son was also an American expat. His international high school offered both AP courses and the full IB diploma. The full IB at his school was also 3 Highers and 3 Standards. Some kids did the full IB, some took AP only, some took both AP and IB courses. There was NO discernable difference in the caliber of US colleges that they were admitted to.</p>

<p>American colleges, especially the more selective, are fully aware of the value of the IB program. They respect the academic rigor, the writing focus, the community service adjunct, the analytical skills acquired in theory of knowledge and the discipline involved in writing the extended essay. </p>

<p>Choosing IB instead of AP would never be a disadvantage, and they wouldn’t expect a student who attended a high school that only offers IB to take AP exams as an EC. :)</p>

<p>The problem is that the American college admissions and course credit systems have been established to fit the AP and trying to accommodate the IB, which is similar but not exactly parallel, is like jamming the IB square peg into the AP hole. </p>

<p>For example, 4’s or 5’s on specific AP courses may lead to advanced placement or course credit, but finding the same advantage for 6’s or 7’s on IB exams, especially S-level courses, is rarer and wildly inconsistent from college to college. So don’t count a lot of tangible benefit in the way of credits and placements. </p>

<p>The intangibles are still invaluable, however, and in my opinion a full IB program with high score predictions from recommenders is a definite admissions "bonus."</p>

<p>The most obvious point of differentiation, is that the scores and grades for the IB Highers and full diploma don’t come out until the US application process is well over. I think that's a reason that some IB students choose to take AP exams -- so that they'll have scores at the time of application. To me, this borders on academic masochism. </p>

<p>Good grades, rank, SATS, ECs, essays, recommendations plus the reasonable potential of securing a full IB diploma are enough for any selective college.</p>

<p>Good luck and let us know how she does.</p>

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<p>I have a sophomore son at a full IB diploma program. The school also offers APs. He will have finished three APs by the end of this year, before the IB exams get into full swing, all in courses he would have taken as AP regardless, because they are in his favorite subject areas.</p>

<p>Next year he takes two SL exams (Math and Spanish), AP Comparative Gov't (another class he is really interested in), AP English Lang/Comp (to have an English score when he applies to colleges), and AP Calc AB (so he gets credit because he'd really like to avoid math in college ;)). </p>

<p>It would be nice to get a college FL requirement out of the way by taking the AP Spanish exam, but I've heard beastly things about it for non-native speakers, and he is a grudging B student in Spanish. I definitely understand (and will be quietly relieved) if he decides he doesn't want to bother. He'll have five years of Spanish by then, anyway. That's plenty. If he needs a FL in college, he can see where he places and/or just start a semester below that and have an easier time of it. </p>

<p>Senior year he'll have HL English, Euro and Bio, SL Psych. APs: Statistics, possibly Psych and Euro to ensure college credit. He might be able to drop some of the double testing once he has a better idea of what his college list will look like so we can evaluate who takes what.</p>

<p>He would love to take AP World (he will probably major in history or polisci), but he'd have to self-study. He could probably cobble things together from his Euro class, Comp Gov't, a study guide and his own deep background, but I am strongly discouraging this. There are not enough hours in the day for an IB student to self-study. He'll enjoy a well-taught college history class a lot more than cramming for an exam.</p>

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<p>"For IB it may be different because you have to be on a certain track since middle school (pre-requisites you have to take) before you are accepted into the program." This may be true at some schools, but by no means is it true at all. Our HS has the IB diploma programme (it's our first year), and that is all. There are no pre-requisites other than being the right sort of student for the work (motivated, interested, hard-working, etc.) That is perfectly fine-- students self-select to apply to the program, and then the faculty meets to discuss each student. For the poster above who seemed to imply that there are limits to the numbers in the program in your school-- that is a really sad situation, in my opinion, because there is no real reason why the school should do that, unless they don't have enough desks and books. I would really question that rule...</p>

<p>Another thing about the IB program is that a student can elect to take a couple of the the courses in the program without doing the whole thing. The student will then get an IB certificate in that class. That is similar to taking an AP exam.</p>

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<p>The school accepts up to 150 students in the program in 9th grade (it's a magnet school and students apply from the whole county). By the time they enter the actual IB Programme in 11th, the number is down to between 110 and 120. There are students in the sidelines that have taken the prerequisites that can get into the program in 11th grade (as they say, you have to be on track). As far as I know IB teachers need special qualifications and if all of a sudden you have ten extra students that want to take a class you can't just open one. All of this is supervised by the IB people in Geneva, so they have their own rules and regulations to guarantee that if you take a class in Nairobi, Brooklyn, Lima, or Tallahassee they are equivalent. That's part of the beauty of the program</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone for the feedback so far! It seems that the main advantage of taking AP exams on top of IB Diploma would be to secure advanced standing at colleges rather than to boost the application. I'm not sure my daughter will have the time to self-study for APs, given a very high workload in 11-12 grades. Maybe she can take some after her senior year, we'll have to see. </p>

<p>Something Christcorp mentioned regarding ECs concerned me: I'm worried my daughter won't have enough strong ECs. Her school is very small, the entire pool of IB Diploma applicants is only ~40 kids, and there are not many clubs on offer. They have model UN club, but she is not interested in politics and international relations. She is a serious competitive swimmer (will have 8 years of swimming by senior year), but this is outside of school, since her school only offers 3 sports. She swims at a great club and it takes 18-20 hours a week, plus competitions on weekends. She is not super talented, but enjoys it a lot, and works very hard. She will be recruitable at Division 3 schools, but probably will not be good enough for Division 1 (except for a few Ivies). She will have community service through the IB program, but I'm not sure what else. She is not exactly a leader, more of a shy and hard working type. She is also a good artist, but the school doesn't even have a student produced newspaper or yearbook, where she could have contributed. Will this lack of ECs hurt her chances? I really don't want her to join activities she doesn't like just for the sake of padding her resume...</p>

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<p>No, the IB program is considered MUCH more challenging than the AP program. I have asked admissions officers from schools like Amherst, Brown and Bowdoin how they view the IB program and they all say that it is considered favorably although they cannot give IB students a major advantage over AP students because most Americans do not have the opportunity to take IB classes. IB classes are not taught to the test like APs - they are much more intellectually challenging although it can also depend on the way respective high schools conduct their classes. I go to an IB school and students from our school who now attend places like Oxford, Harvard, Yale, etc. say that university is much easier/less time consuming than the IB program at our school.</p>

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<p>Even one EC with passion is better that many superficial ones. She has focused into swimming and that is great.</p>

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<p>US<em>UK</em>MOM. Personally, I don't think there is much advantage at all to your kid being full time IB and taking AP classes on top of that. In the IB program, there is usually room for 2 electives. The rest of the curriculum is pretty much already figured out. Unless your child really super loves a particular field or course, there is absolutely no advantage to them wasting their electives, or making them take a 9th class during the day on an AP class.</p>

<p>You must allow your child to find balance. You aren't the one taking or doing the IB program. Your kid is. This is my 7th year in a row with the IB program. I've sort of got it somewhat figured out. Not the actual classes, but how it affects the kids; the time requirements; the pressure; etc... The whole purpose of the electives was to allow your kid to take a class that is totally fun or interesting and not required. (That's why they also have electives in college - it's part of the well rounded student). For 4 or 5 semester, my daughter took choir. For 3 years, my son took strength and conditioning (Weight lifting). Don't force them to take AP classes on top of the IB program. There is no advantage and can lead to major burn out.</p>

<p>As far as the EC's go. Swimming is DEFINITELY A GREAT THING. Have her keep it up. In IB she has to do CAS hours. Some of those are volunteer time. That counts as EC. If your kid can't find an actual club that they enjoy and are passionate about, maybe they enjoy spending more time at some of the places they've been a volunteer at. The cas hours are a minimum, they can do more in those areas. As already mentioned, it's all about passion. Make sure they are doing something they love to do. Swimming is definitely good. I have to reiterate what I wrote in my first post and again here. DON'T LET YOUR KID BECOME AN ACADEMIC MOLE. It isn't worth it. Me personally; unless it was a class that my kid was super excited about; I.e. If he loved math, wanted to study math in college, and asked me to let him take another AP math class in high school because he loved it; that would be the only way I would allow my son to be in the IB program and ALSO take an AP class. The kids need to time to unwind or they will snap. I've seen it happen to kids at the high school. Hell, it happens to kids in regular school.</p>

<p>For what it's worth; our school starts about 100-125 kids in 9th grade in the IB program. By the time 11th grade comes along and the real IB kicks in, there are about 50 kids left. By senior year and graduation, there will be approximately 35 kids left in the IB program. Of those 35; mostly girls for some reason; it has ranged from 20% to 60% have actually gotten the IB diploma. Of course, every kid in the program has gotten into colleges of their choosing, with some colleges giving credit. It's also prepared them academically and each one of them have done better usually than their peers in college. I have nothing against AP classes, but the IB program is an entire program. The greatest thing it probably teaches you is time management and study skills. By the 4th year, your life is organized and on track for wherever you have aimed it. My daughter is a junior in college and can whip through 5 classes a semester, maintain a 3.4gpa, be the resident advisor in the dorm and handle all the dorm kid's problems, and still have time to go out and have fun. She really thanked IB for preparing her. Again, don't let your kid burn out. Stay away from AP classes on top of the Ib program unless the kid is really passionate about the class. It doesn't really serve any benefit.</p>

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<p>The thing with the AP classes is that usually the teachers are better, the classes more interesting, and their friends are in them, so the kids tend to stick together. Our school has over 3000 students and the 450 or so IB students are like a school within a school. Once you reach a certain level in a subject, the next logical level is the AP class or don't take that subject anymore. This year the school went into an 8 period day (there is block scheduling so they only do 4 each day) to allow the students to have room for electives. Guess what, most chose to take more Honors and AP classes! Go figure.</p>

<p>Regardless, like Christcorp says, it is great college preparation, colleges know it, and they give great significance and weight to IB.</p>

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<p>US_UK Mom: From what you describe, your daughter sounds like a lovely, well-rounded young woman. There are plenty of ECs in her r</p>

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<p>Our IB program is a selective entry magnet program; over 90% graduate with the full diploma. J'adoube, I really like the eight period schedule blocked into two days. My other son has that kind of schedule, and it is wonderful for taking things that one really WANTS to take. It also makes it a lot easier to schedule ECs, HW, etc. because the kids get that extra night to do HW. I wish my IB son had that option. </p>

<p>We found last year that DS2 (who does not love math) was spending so much time trying to keep his head above water in his pre-IB Alg II w/Analysis class that it affected his other subjects. This year, he's taking Math Studies Precalc (so he'll take Math SL/Calc AB junior year). It has made for a much saner life (for him and me) and his grades in other classes improved, too. He didn't need to be in the math race. I'd rather see him doing debate, MUN, writing for the newspaper and hitting the weight room -- all stuff that reinvigorates him and that he enjoys -- without worrying that it takes time from doing math HW.</p>