Compiling list of schools for PhD program - Safety Schools?

Graduate School
1

I am a junior a large Midwestern science and technology university majoring in biochemistry with minors in microbiology and genetics. I have a 3.73 cumulative GPA with having taken 6 graduate courses to date (biochemistry I and II, virology, immunology, molecular signaling, and molecular genetics). I have 1 year of lab assistant experience, 3 semesters of ongoing research during the school year (that I will continue until I graduate next spring), an NSF REU last summer, and an Amgen Scholar (Harvard) this coming summer. Currently I have a publication under review at a journal. I’ve done 3 poster presentations for my original research.

In order to not be doing all my graduate school applications last minute, I’ve been trying to compile a list of schools to whittle down by the end of the summer. I understand that for the sake of my finances and sanity, I probably shouldn’t apply to more than a dozen, but I’m wracked with fear that I’ll be rejected from everywhere. It’s very easy to compile a list of schools whose program structure and research match my interests, but it is more difficult to define what a “safety school” would be for me. For my undergrad, I applied to 1 place because I was a National Merit Scholar and knew I was going to get a scholarship at that institution.

So far, I have:
Harvard University
University of Washington
Yale University
Cornell University
Columbia University
University of Wisconsin-Madison
University of Oregon
University of California - San Francisco
Stanford University
Princeton University
New York University
Boston University
Vanderbilt University
University of Tennessee
Dartmouth College

I did the NSF REU University of Tennessee and loved it. Although because of their research, it would be more of a safety. My current undergrad is not on here. How do I go about finding schools that aren’t reaches? How do I tell if a school will be a reach or not? I completely understand that I am probably not going to get into 90% of these schools but I really want to know how to look at a program and discern which category in which to put it. Thanks!

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At least as you have described your qualifications, you probably have a pretty good shot at just about any school. Find maybe half a dozen schools that have research that aligns with your interest and then start reaching out to professors there that interest you.

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Oh, it’s also probably helpful to know that the GPA I described was cumulative, and my science/major GPA is 3.93. I also kind of forgot to say I have a fellowship for my research and HOPEFULLY (with the grace of the NSF gods) will be considered for a NSF graduate fellowship.

Thank you. It is reassuring to know that at least SOMEONE thinks that. :stuck_out_tongue: I’m the first in my family to do something like this and am a bit anxious about the horror stories you hear of some highly qualified student applying to 5 schools and getting rejected by all of them. So I wanted to make sure I had at least 2 safety schools. Normally, I would consider a school at which I participated in a summer program a safety (such as University of Tennessee), but Harvard isn’t a safety in my mind! (Even if I go in there and wow them with my insight, work ethic, and passion for research)

4

I wouldn’t approach grad school like undergrad. Only apply to institutions where you want to go. If you don’t get in you can find work or post grad research for a year and apply in another round.

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If you do apply to a safety (and get in there but nowhere else), tons of people will say just go work for a year and reapply. That’s easy for people to say who get into 6 out of 8 schools. Not so much if you get into a safety and nowhere else, and have no job lined up (plus you’re unlikely to get in after getting rejected the previous year unless you substantially change something about your profile – meanwhile, the competition is getting stiffer every year). This isn’t the 90s anymore, you can’t just approach a company with a STEM degree and get a job easy peasy. The competition for everything in this day and age is staggering. It’s better to apply to a safety than to pull out your hair every day of April and May while everyone around you is constantly calling you, emailing you, etc. and asking why you haven’t gotten in anywhere yet. That said, if you can’t get in to a “good” school (whatever that means), it’s certainly possible going to grad school is the wrong move for you anyway.

That said, your profile looks very strong, you should get in somewhere good. IMO don’t listen to the “there’s no such thing as safeties” nonsense. Some schools will be backups for you, and you will be backups in the student pool for some of the schools you apply to.

To answer what you actually asked, go look on gradcafe results for the schools you’re interested in. Sometimes people post their stats (GPA, GRE, research, etc.). There can be some good info on the forums there for particular fields as well.

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I didn’t know about gradcafe! That would be helpful. Thank you so much! I guess that applying for the summer programs has left me a little wary of the whole experience. I only got into 3/16 of the programs I applied to this summer (Harvard Amgen, University of Oregon, and University of Pittsburgh) and waitlisted at 2 (NYU and UCB Amgen). Like I said, I did an NSF REU, the last summer, and those have similar low acceptance rates. I’m just nervous that it’s the same sort of acceptance rates. Some of these programs had over 1000 applicants (I think Harvard had ~1100!).

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The REU is probably a bit of a weedout, maybe even harder than grad school applications, though it’s hard to say. Sometimes they lose funding and the program gets cancelled. They also definitely like diversity in some cases, maybe even more than grad schools (if you’re African American, or a white female, you can get a nudge). You’re also at the mercy of one professor most likely, and not a whole committee. There may also be some judgment in the quality of your REU – for example, in Math, UW Madison has a very strong REU program, which may help more (assuming one does well that summer) than going to an REU at a place like Indiana.

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I’m a white female in the biomedical sciences, so while there is a preference, there are more girls than in math. I was hoping that the UTK REU and the Harvard Amgen program would have been HARDER to get into than grad school. Like I said, no one in my family has done this before. My father got his MS in engineering at his undergrad, so he was a shoe-in. I just want to know how to look at a program and say, “Okay, this is a reach or match or safety.” Grad cafe seems like a good place to do that. But I also was curious as to how many of each type everyone applies to. Like I said, I went on a university website that had a horror story of how one really qualified girl applied to only 6 programs but got rejected because they were all top-notch.

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6 sounds a little low, 12 sounds a little high. I’d probably go for 1-2 safeties, 3-4 reaches, and 3-6 matches. Figure out what qualifies as safety, reach, match by doing some research (for example, stats on gradcafe). There’s also a forum called mathematicsgre for Math with lots of good info, and a similar one for physics. Not sure if there’s one for bio. Also depends on which programs you’re specifically interested in obviously.

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why dont you have Caltech on your list? It is considered the #1 research U in the world.
http://www.caltech.edu/

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I’ll have to look at it! I really want to choose a grad school based on faculty projects (in a general sense) while not destroying myself writing a billion different personal statements. I honestly think I just forgot about Caltech

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I would expect that UTK will be eager to admit you since they already know you from the REU. I would say that 6 or just a couple more is the right number. No more than 2 safeties and make sure that they are schools you would be perfectly happy to go to and where there are faculty who match your research interests.

if your GRE scores are on a par with your GPA you will hvae a shot at most of the schools in your list so just choose the ones that fit you best.

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Thanks for the advice! It really helps to demystify the entire process. I’m just trying to take a deep breath and objectively evaluate my merit. I think that’s the hardest part, especially for someone who didn’t do it for undergrad. Finding the “match” schools is difficult because everyone has different qualifications.

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btw it is thegradcafe

but I don’t think you can tell much from the reporting, although it is interesting to read. Most of the time there is no mention of what the research background is and of course no info on the important component that is the LOR

When my dd applied she did not get into the couple of uber tippy top 4, but into several just behind that and did not get an offer at the lower ranked one where she thought she would get in because she knew the prof did work with her prof. You never know.

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I should probably also say that while poking around on the website (instead of studying for molecular immunology LOL) I’ve noticed people are prestige-crazed here. I’ve never seen so much obsession with getting into a dream school. I’d like to clarify my list of schools to say that I chose them based off faculty members, not names. I go to Iowa State, which is a spectacular school for science and technology, but definitely not fancy. I promised myself that instead of steeping in thousands of dollars of debt, I would take the National Merit scholarship and work as hard as I could so I could have a choice when it came time to go to graduate school. And honestly, I know someone at Brown, at I am consistently taking harder/more advanced coursework than her as well as doing independent, novel research outside of class. So I know I made the right decision 3.5 years ago, and I want to make the same one this time around. And now I’m trying to line up my interests, realistic abilities, and dreams with a cohesive list of graduate schools. I really appreciate the input. I know it’s hard to advise someone you don’t know!

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I’d be careful with thegradcafe results. Although the forums are awesome, the results are only posted by a select group of people who 1) know that it exists and 2) are willing to post their stats and results up. It’s not a representative swath of applicants and I know a lot of people who go a little nuts on gradcafe waiting for results or whatnot. Use it as a piece of information and not gospel truth.

I, personally, am against the idea of “safety schools” in the traditional sense for PhD programs. The purpose of a PhD is often to go into an academic job, but at least to do research in industry or something, and the reputation of your program (not prestige) is important. You want to work with an advisor who does similar research to you, on problems you care about, learning techniques that are cutting-edge and/or widely-used, and in a department that has resources and a wide network and quality education. Some schools that it might be easier for you to get into might have those qualities, but in general I think applying to schools that aren’t a good fit for you just because they are potentially easier to gain admission to is not a great idea. First of all, even if you are an excellent student, you might still get rejected, because the most important aspect is fit. If you say you want to do nanomaterials research and there’s no one doing that X School, X School might not admit you no matter how good your record is.

I disagree that you are unlikely to get in anywhere if you are rejected the first year around, because I’ve seen it happen countless times. PhD programs are competitive and sometimes the reasons you are rejected have nothing to do with you: maybe you were choice #5 but the program that normally has 6 slots only has 4 this year; or maybe the professor you would’ve worked with was on sabbatical but is now back; or maybe the department just hired someone new in your area who likes your profile; or any number of other things that has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the program and/or the other applicants. And while the job market isn’t the easiest right now, I don’t think it’s impossible for people to find something to do in the intervening year. Waiting a year and attending the best program for you is a far better choice than attending a substandard program just because it’s the only one you got into. I definitely don’t agree that going to a safety is better than answering questions from friends and family about why you haven’t gotten in anywhere. That’s a momentary hassle. The choice of your program determines your career choices.

Some schools may be less desirable for you than others - you might, say, prefer Columbia to Oregon, or UCSF to Cornell. But that doesn’t mean that any of them is a “safety”. It just means that you have an order of preference, which is normal. If any of your schools is a “back up,” I think you need to ask yourself whether or not you actually like that program’s features and think it’s a good launching pad for the future. Grad school is career prep.

That’s the best way to choose - fit, research, not name obsession (as long as the programs are well-reputed in your field). But as a note, your personal statement will be largely the same for all programs. The only thing you’ll alter will be a short paragraph at the end of each where you talk specifically about why you want to go to X Program.

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When I say “safety school,” I don’t mean a school I wouldn’t want to go to. It’s a waste of my time, the admissions committee’s time, and also unfair to the student who REALLY wants to go to the “safety” to apply somewhere I don’t want to go. I will only choose as safety school as somewhere that I would be happy to go, although it may not be my first choice. UTK, for instance, does not have the biomedical emphasis that is my #1 research interest BUT it does have strong faculty members that are doing interdisciplinary research some of which I find interesting. I loved Knoxville, but given the choice between there and (for example) University of Washington, I would choose UW. The UTK program would train me in the skills I need to be highly successful, but it’s not a “perfect fit.” That, combined with the fact that I have had very strong encouragement from faculty on the admissions committee, make it a safety. I am trying to find other schools (or maybe just 1 more) that may not be 100% perfect, but would be somewhere I could be happy attending in addition to the aspect of there being a very good chance of my acceptance.
I definitely am not focused on the prestige of the school as I look at it. Many times, there is a correlation between the top tier schools and the strength of their research in my field, but not always. For example, I looked at Colorado State University, which is a spectacular school. However, the research there is not what I would want to do for 6 years. I wouldn’t be a shoe-in there, so I cross it off my list. “Reputation of the program” is very important to me, as well as the overall focus or diversity of projects.
I really am trying to avoid taking a gap year. That would be a worst-case scenario in which I would probably just stay at ISU to earn my MS. That’s the backup plan, rather than working, mostly because I feel it would add most to my resume and potentially open doors for me.
I was wondering if the PS was going to be the same deal as the programs for this summer! I basically did what you said. Thank goodness they don’t expect a highly tailored personal statement on why I’ve wanted to go to school X for the entirety of my life

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When I say “safety school,” I don’t mean a school I wouldn’t want to go to. It’s a waste of my time, the admissions committee’s time, and also unfair to the student who REALLY wants to go to the “safety” to apply somewhere I don’t want to go. I will only choose as safety school as somewhere that I would be happy to go, although it may not be my first choice. UTK, for instance, does not have the biomedical emphasis that is my #1 research interest BUT it does have strong faculty members that are doing interdisciplinary research some of which I find interesting. I loved Knoxville, but given the choice between there and (for example) University of Washington, I would choose UW. The UTK program would train me in the skills I need to be highly successful, but it’s not a “perfect fit.” That, combined with the fact that I have had very strong encouragement from faculty on the admissions committee, make it a safety. I am trying to find other schools (or maybe just 1 more) that may not be 100% perfect, but would be somewhere I could be happy attending in addition to the aspect of there being a very good chance of my acceptance.
I definitely am not focused on the prestige of the school as I look at it. Many times, there is a correlation between the top tier schools and the strength of their research in my field, but not always. For example, I looked at Colorado State University, which is a spectacular school. However, the research there is not what I would want to do for 6 years. I wouldn’t be a shoe-in there, so I cross it off my list. “Reputation of the program” is very important to me, as well as the overall focus or diversity of projects.
I really am trying to avoid taking a gap year. That would be a worst-case scenario in which I would probably just stay at ISU to earn my MS. That’s the backup plan, rather than working, mostly because I feel it would add most to my resume and potentially open doors for me.
I was wondering if the PS was going to be the same deal as the programs for this summer! I basically did what you said. Thank goodness they don’t expect a highly tailored personal statement on why I’ve wanted to go to school X for the entirety of my life.

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You should find a few informal faculty advisors at your current school who can tell you more info about the various programs based on their experiences and what they have heard. Your current professors may have professional contacts at some of the schools on your list. Professors do send emails about promising undergrads to their professional friends and colleagues. And while you have on your own put together a list of faculty you want to talk to at the other schools, your current faculty can tell you more about which famous professors are good to work for and who is not good to work with.

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Thegradcafe results are far from perfect, but they can give you a very basic idea, better than nothing. If you check the forums for their bio, they probably have a results thread where people post their stats and admission results. There are also some useful forums for this called mathematicsgre and physicsgre, but I don’t think there’s one for bio. Who knows, maybe there are some people on the physicsgre forum applying to both physics and bio programs. If you’re going to suggest that thegradcafe results are completely useless, maybe you should post an alternative suggestion instead.

Check out this thread: http://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/56493-2015-applicant-profiles-and-admissions-results/ In addition to GPA, GRE, etc., there ARE quite specific descriptions of research experience, TA experience, and so on. People may not be copy/pasting their LORs on there, but you can still get a pretty good idea. Sometimes they do describe their LOR situation though, and how strong they expect them to be, which is something.

I did not mean to suggest you won’t get in anywhere if you reapply the next year, but that you’re unlikely to get in to a specific school after getting rejected the previous year. Many schools explicitly say this on their website. Of course, your chances are better if you apply to many schools. Obviously, if you change something about your application, like better LORs, a year of quality research experience, better GRE scores, or something else, then you do have a legitimate chance.

It’s always possible that you got rejected because of funding issues or something like that, but everything gets more competitive and more difficult each and every year. For example, the Math subject GRE is a bit more difficult now than when I took it about 5 years ago. The practice exam available on the website from 10 years ago is way easier than when I took it. (And of course, the practice exams available from the 80s are a complete joke by now.) Every year, there’s more fantastic competition, so if you get rejected this year, you shouldn’t be too optimistic that you’ll get in next year unless there’s some significant way you’re changing your profile. Also, people in older generations will always say “go work for a year.” It may be possible to go find a job quickly if you have some decent work experience and are near a decent-sized city. But most companies don’t want to hire anyone with no experience these days (“entry-level” often means 3-5 years of experience). The bottom line is, it’s typically much easier to get into grad school than to get a job (unless you have a 2.3 GPA or something), and work is not usually a backup for grad school – it’s usually the other way around. (Now if you have to go get some deadend job for a while to pay the bills, that’s an entirely different issue.)

I did not mean to suggest you should apply to a safety just to satisfy the curiosity of your friends and family (I’m all for living for you, and not worrying what others want you to do with your life), only that applying only to top schools will make things very stressful for you. I’ve been there, and it’s not fun. I don’t see much difference in calling a school a safety vs. “less desirable.” Everyone wants to go to their favorite school, but not everyone can be the best.

That said, I suspect this is all pretty academic, because the OP looks to have a pretty stellar profile.