Composition Major - How important are grades?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I'm new to CC with a question about degrees in music composition. My now senior son is interested in pursuing a degree in music composition but is getting a late start in this effort. Though he has been writing music since he was little (he asked for a keyboard when he was 4) his formal musical training began at the age of 12 when he began playing the tenor saxophone. He now doubles on alto, flute, and clarinet. He attends a small private school with an excellent music program and has been given many opportunities. He is in his 2nd year as student conductor, and participates in both jazz band and wind symphony. The bands won multiple awards in the past year. It's a challenging program.</p>

<p>He wrote and performed his first jazz piece this past spring and was "discovered" by a professional musician who asked to mentor him. This musician is a Grammy winner, performing in both television, studio, and stage environments, is a music producer, and has taught in several music programs, including USC Thornton and Colburn. Over the summer, DS has written 5 or 6 new pieces of contrasting style, 3 of which contain full orchestration. These 3 pieces will be recorded in the coming weeks by professional musicians, and will be used to apply to college to further his studies in composition. His mentor believes that two of the pieces are excellent, possibly good enough to tweak further and sell at some point.</p>

<p>The challenge as far as I can see it is that his grades aren't as good as they could be. He currently has about a 3.5 gpa (honors but no AP, but a full course of study beyond the minimum), and fairly low SAT scores (1500 - no prep courses). He is taking the SAT again in October.</p>

<p>His mentor has encouraged him to place his focus on USC Thornton and UCLA because of their proximity to LA and knows people within both schools. He also believes that he is stong enough to go right into working in LA, but we firmly feel he has much to gain by pursuing a degree, by studying under a variety of people who will challenge him and help him grow. We are also looking into some of the East Coast schools (Eastman, Berklee, Juilliard) as well as a couple of Christian colleges and a state school. DS hopes to eventually to explore film scoring and other commercial music, so a program with a good film school would be a plus. If you have any thoughts on any of these programs, or might suggest some others, I welcome your thoughts.</p>

<p>So, what do you think? Will his grades be a big factor?</p>

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<p>In LA, as a safety, he could look into CSU Northridge, which is strong in jazz, and CSU Long Beach, which has an up and coming composition department. I think his grades are pretty low for UCLA - but, as long as he meets the minimum (and you can check that online - GPA + SAT ) and he nails his audition/application to the School of Music, then his grades won’t matter. For both UCLA and USC - even if he’s admitted to the programs based on his music - he’ll still have general ed courses to take - do you think he’d have any trouble keeping up with the courseload? Would your son be happier in a conservatory like Berklee where he could focus solely on music?</p>

<p>Other programs with both music composition and strong film programs are NYU and Chapman. Univ. of Michigan would be worth looking at, too.</p>

<p>Also, is he interested, beyond eventually writing film scores - in classical, commercial, or jazz composition? Is he particularly interested in writing for band instruments? Different programs are stronger in one area or another. Let alone the differences in their aesthetics.</p>

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<p>Congratulations on these exciting development for your son!</p>

<p>For some conservatories (BM programs) grades don’t matter much at all. For programs affiliated with a university, they may. It varies with how admissions work in each school, I think. But even in a very selective school, his musical accomplishments and recommendations from his mentor, possibly others, and the music itself, will be hugely helpful with admissions, I would think. And a GPA of 3.5 sounds pretty decent anyway.</p>

<p>Does he want to stay near LA?</p>

<p>USC Thornton sounds like a good first choice. I second Berklee.</p>

<p>On this board, I have learned about all kinds of programs that my poor brain cannot retain, so I think others will chime in with other ideas pertaining to your son’s interests. Good luck!</p>

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<p>OCMusicMom - sent you a PM.</p>

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<p>Grades don’t matter as much as they do with straight academic admissions, with composition as I understand it the weighting factor is how good his portfolio is coming in and his audition (however they do that), if your son has a lot of talent that at schools like USC, NYU and so forth that normally are pretty tough to get into without being up there academically, it will weight heavily for him. A 3.5 into USC wanting to major in math would be a pretty tough admit, but for a talented music student it may be perfectly fine (put it this way, the 4.0 with the 2400 SAT might get into USC, but that won’t impress the music school at all,and for music students the music school has more pull then the academic one in admissions from everything I can tell).</p>

<p>No guarantees, obviously, but if musicians who know the music scene in LA are giving him advice, listen to it, because that is his future quite literally; music teachers and such often mean well, but many of them quite frankly may not be in touch with the reality of what is going on out there. When a working musician tells you something, it is with knowledge of the real world. Location matters in many ways and with film schools being there, like at NYU or USC, that can be a big plus if he is thinking of it, because it is about exposure and networking. The film student he does music for in school might end up being George Lucas doing star wars (well, okay, Lucas and Spielberg had John Williams as their house slave composer, so not a great example <em>lol</em>), and that is where it really starts from what I can tell. I do know as an NYU alumni that with SOA (school of the arts, including music) that they are not as strict with grades with talented students, though it depends as well, for recording engineering and the music business stuff, they are tough…).</p>

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<p>I want to thank each of you for your replies. I hope that I can answer some of the questions you asked.</p>

<p>SpiritManager: CSU Long Beach is definitely on our radar. The HS he attends is considered to be a tier 1 school at CSULB and I have no doubts he’d be admitted there. We are still exploring Northridge. Our concern is with the 5-year graduation status due to financial cutbacks in the state funded schools. I don’t believe he’d have a difficult time in general ed classes. His school is pretty challenging and the graduates are well-prepared for college. He has followed an extensive course load (4-years Hist, 4 years Eng, 4 years math, 3 years science, 2 years foreign lang - all CP, plus 4 years of jazz, 4 years of wind symphony, 3 years of marching band). In another school, I suspect his GPA would have likely been closer to a 3.8 or 3.9. I will check the other schools you’ve recommended - Thank you!</p>

<p>As for his musical interest, yes, yes, and yes. :slight_smile: His current pieces include multiple styles - a Brass Fanfare (it’s a big piece with a lot of texture), a Celtic/Irish/Scottish piece that includes a choral portion, a Baroque piece written for strings, a number of jazz pieces, and several pieces currently written for piano that may develop into something else over time. His music tends to be melody driven, other than the Baroque piece, so if anything, the style less suited to him currently is very modern music. He does love writing for band instruments and will be re-writing the Brass piece for his wind symphony to perform this year (our small school doesn’t have 6 French horns!</p>

<p>compmom: Yes, we will be gathering all the appropriate recommendations. His mentor’s may well carry some weight. I hope so. At this point, an LA school would be his first choice, but ultimately, he will likely attend the school that will best help him explore and grow musically. And, like many of us, any scholarships received will also likely help him form his choice. I doubt that it will be any single factor, but a variety of plusses that will help one school win out over another. He has really enjoyed marching band and may want to attend a school with a program.</p>

<p>othermusicdad: Thank you for your PM.</p>

<p>musicprnt: Thank you for your thoughts. His mentor has already introduced him to a number of other professional musicians. Even though he will be attending school, it’s likely he will continue to work with both his composing mentor and his sax/flute/clarinet teacher, another professional musician. That would certainly be easier to do if he were to remain in the LA area. His performance skills are good, solid player, but he doesn’t yet have the level of training like someone with far more years of study than he has had so an audition will likely be a bigger challenge than his composition submissions. He will continue working with his teacher this school year and hopefully gain further experience in that regard.</p>

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<p>I’d recommend you contact via PM JazzShredderMom as she is from the LA area and investigated all the same schools - although for jazz and not composition. She knows a lot about admission to USC, where her son now attends in the Popular Music Program (he switched from jazz to popular music his freshman year.)</p>

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<p>Thank you! Will do. It’s always helpful to hear from those who have already blazed a path. Thanks for the tip.</p>

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<p>sent you a PM!</p>

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<p>Dear OCMusicmom</p>

<p>I have a couple of things we learned while applying last year, and a couple of unsolicited general thoughts. First, I agree that he won’t have much of a problem as far as his GPA. I would say go ahead & take the SAT again, but then try to let go of worrying about it. (Though I just re-read one of your posts, and for UCLA & maybe others you’d want to be sure he has enough foreign language – was his HS year two actually “Language 3”?)</p>

<p>Notes about Long Beach vs USC vs UCLA: we all loved the CSLB music program, the campus, and the Dept. Chair, who happened to be a comp prof. – it’s closer to home for us than anywhere else our son applied, and was the least expensive school up front. Yet still they have to work with the campus GE requirements & other policies (like a maximum # of units in the freshman year, if I remember correctly). It seemed to me (and you should really double check because I never got the final word on this) that without some AP units &/or testing out of requirements, one wouldn’t necessarily begin taking composition lessons until junior year, which would make it not a great professional comp program for your son, & mine, and plenty of others here. One would also, bc of the senior project, almost certainly have to consider it a 4.5 or 5-year degree (and, if paying out of pocket, there goes the cost savings). They don’t require a portfolio, and didn’t seem to have a clear method for having one reviewed ahead if desired; it was all up to the instrumental audition (though they knew which the comp applicants were). It IS a vibrant-looking comp program, it IS up-and-coming, but check the logistics carefully. I don’t know much about USC since our son wouldn’t apply (various minor personal reasons, absolutely no reason anyone else shouldn’t!) and it would probably be perfect for your son if it works out. A classmate of my son’s, probably the most accomplished young musician and composer we know, chose UCLA over a famous East Coast conservatory, which is a great sign for UCLA, in my opinion.</p>

<p>My general feeling is that it’s probably worth thinking long & hard about college vs an early professional life. There’s a lot to be said on both sides, but I’m usually more for developing oneself in college, and not trying to go too far too fast. Kids change so much from 18-22. I really do agree with Musicprnt about location, connections, etc, but I also want to support your firm inclination to make sure your son has a regular college experience, including working with various composers. My conservatory-alum husband is a firm believer in Foundations – I think perhaps we had discussions around this forum on the subject before :relaxed:. Not everyone agrees, & not all schools agree, about what is important, and how to teach it. Which is partly why this is so messy & complicated. (Speaking of foundations, if he hasn’t yet, your son may want to begin to familiarize himself with the piano this year, rather than wait. I don’t mean to add to the pressure, feel free to ignore me! But you should look carefully at each school’s requirements for graduation, for piano & otherwise – they vary so much.)</p>

<p>A quick thought about mentors generally. It’s good to keep one’s head about oneself. I wanted to be an actor, and I had a lovely much older gentleman mentor while I was in high school. Though he was a highly-encouraging, well-qualified, above-board professional who was certain I had a ton of talent, he wasn’t as it happened at all able to advise about college, or actual training in the field. I’m not against the concept of mentoring at all of course. It’s just good to keep your objectivity, as you’re clearly doing.</p>

<p>Finally, this is not a plug, necessarily, but my son is super happy at IU Jacobs, where his eminent comp prof. is having him write for a single instrument for the first time ever. I also like their policy of rotating instructors for the first 3 years, at least, so as to develop several strong relationships, and come out with several good letters of rec for grad school. It’s in the middle of nowhere, but it’s a whole world unto itself – super fun, incredibly busy, highly-respected, and as a basis for grad school I think it can’t be beat.</p>

<p>Sorry to go on so long! Feel free to pm me for more info about any of the things I actually know something about, which are few :relaxed:</p>

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<p>The brilliant opera composer Jake Heggie went to UCLA. While there are many reasons my son chose Oberlin Conservatory for composition, one was that he would have a college experience while studying in a conservatory atmosphere. If he had chosen to concentrate his applications on the east coast big city conservatories, he was free to do so. But he had a good sense of himself and decided that at the undergraduate level at least that was not for him. So I’m all in favor of situations like USC, UCLA, and CSLB. While UCSD is a great composition school, it seems much more focused on their graduate programs. Their Ph.D program in composition is one of the best.</p>

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<p>At many conservatories, the portfolio and an interview will be the requirements for applying for composition (and often a theory exam, which is for placement purposes, not admission), with no audition. Others will have an instrumental audition, even for composers.</p>

<p>For many college programs, a CD can be sent as part of the arts supplement to the common application, and there is no audition for admission. Then the audition, if there is one, is in the fall when they first attend, for orchestra, band or other ensembles.</p>

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<p>And, some colleges will require all of those things of composers :slight_smile: It seems to depend on whether they have an ensemble requirement, and whether they have a track to support instrument lessons along with the comp major. I think CSULB had instrument lessons for two years, then comp lessons for two years, for example. But perhaps the option, if one could fit it in, of early comp lessons (but always check me!) IU Jacobs has various options, depending on the student’s interests and audition. I should note, I think I should have written CSULB for Long Beach, rather than CSLB, for searching purposes.</p>

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<p>You all are providing great information and opening new avenues of research for me. Thank you. To answer and reply:</p>

<p>momophony: The second year of language was just that, Spanish II. In general, the UC’s prefer 3 years, though their website lists a requirement of two. Since UCLA is more competitive than some of the other UC’s, I do realize that this could be an issue. However, if they otherwise like his work and would accept him, I am hopeful that they would do a conditional with a requirement to take the Spanish III equivalent during the summer before admission in the fall.</p>

<p>I did check further into CSULB and see what you mean. It appears there is a class that must be taken and then admission to composition is recommended or not. Their website does suggest that you can also petition to test out of it. I have no doubts that he would do fine in that regard. My husband and son have attended performances there and are generally pleased with the quality of their program. I, too, am concerned about the 5 year process to graduate. Current freshmen are being held to 13 units, which could make graduation a long road.</p>

<p>And thank you for your thoughts on mentors, the college experience, and IU Jacobs. I will do further research into Jacob’s and see whether that might also be a good fit. What is it about IU Jacobs that your son liked?</p>

<p>Bartokrules: Thank you for your thoughts. We had originally looked into Oberlin and had it on our list. I’m not sure why it’s not on there now. I’ll have to revisit that with my son. What was it about Oberlin that sold you?</p>

<p>compmom: It is dizzying all of the varied requirements for each of the schools. We have a running spreadsheet just to keep up on all of the requirements, submission dates, etc. As for auditions, he’s a solid player, but by no means a virtuoso. He has only been playing for 5 years, and is currently lead in both wind (tenor sax) and jazz (alto sax). It’s a solid program, but I’m sure there are far better players out there. My question is - If he’s applying for composition, how heavily is performance weighted in that process? I imagine that varies depending on the school, but that is something to consider.</p>

<p>Again, I’m grateful for the advice here on this board. I did months of reading before joining. I’m glad I did. Thank you.</p>

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<p>One more thing, momophony - - - Yes, the piano would be a good thing. He has been playing his keyboard since he asked for it at the age of four, but probably with all kinds of bad habits of which someone would have to break him. He informally began writing music on the piano initially, then went to Band in a Box, and now Sibelius. Yet, he still goes back to the piano because sometimes that’s just the best way to hear the melody. I’m not sure we can fit that in until much later (heavy course load this year, college apps, marching band, wind/jazz performances, trips, and competitions, his composition training, and music lessons on his primary instruments, etc.) so perhaps this summer would be a good time to work on that. I hope that’s enough to at least break a few of his bad habits. ;)</p>

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<p>OCMusicmom - What sold me on Oberlin was the undergraduate focus and Oberlin’s fantastic record of placing its composition grads directly into the best composition Ph.D programs which is my son’s goal. I also love the town of Oberlin, out in the middle of nowhere yet only 35 miles from Cleveland. We passed Amish buggies on the way to the school. Oberlin does require that composition applicants take their online theory exam which is considered in the application process. After taking another test once he was accepted, he ended up placing out of the first semester of theory.</p>

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<p>Thank you for sharing your experience, Bartokrules. It sounds like a wonderful place!</p>

<p>He’s hard at work on the applications, with his choice of schools shifting back and forth. I’m curious as to how many schools your students elected to apply. With a busy music schedule on top of all of the academics (he has a full 7-period load) the thought of all those applications is truly dizzying.</p>

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<p>My daughter applied to 4 conservatories and two colleges, saving the decision about BM versus BA for the last minute of April in senior year. Auditions at 4 proved to be plenty for her.</p>

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<p>My son applied to 3 conservatories and 3 universities/colleges. He had 2 additional schools that he would have applied to. However, he was accepted early to one of the schools he applied to through early action, so he withdrew one application and did not submit 2 others that were due later.</p>

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<p>Dear OCMusicMom, if you’re still here…</p>

<p>I’m sorry for very delayed reply, but October is the busiest time of year for me, and I’ve been entirely distracted :relaxed:</p>

<p>In response to why IU, my son wanted a large university with a high-quality professional music program inside it, so he could have a somewhat traditional college experience, while studying all music all the time. There are many schools that have something like this, but he wanted a top music school and a BMus, so the choices were more limited. He also wanted the opportunity to play his second instrument for ensemble rather than be “stuck in choir” (sorry VP folk :relaxed: . His choir director dad is still hoping he gives it a try at some point) and almost no other school he looked at would allow him to audition for ensemble on an instrument he wouldn’t actually be studying. He wanted to be around a ton of really great musicians, so that it would be pretty easy to find talented folks who’d be willing to play his music; and he wanted to have a chance to start a band for fun. Oh yes, and we really wanted him to keep up the piano. To the point of the original post, we were also looking for a school where he would be admitted with an imperfect GPA (though his SAT scores helped with some other schools, his grades were fine for IU.) So IU was perfect in almost every way. The only drawback (and we parents don’t see it as such) is that they have changed the GE requirements somewhat, and he’ll have a bit more non-music than he wanted. Another one is distance from home, but that was likely going to be a problem anyhow.</p>

<p>Another nice thing about IU is that they have various levels of instrument study for comp majors from almost none to some to very serious. My son is in the middle, which is perfect for him, i.e., all the fun, and none of the stress. He has lessons, but no juries, and the lessons are with a grad student. (I think comp requires lessons on a second instrument in years 3 & 4, so he could pick up trumpet lessons again, or try something else.) Since he planned to do one anyway, I’m not entirely sure whether auditions are required. They have very clear semester-by-semester maps on their website (make sure you’re looking at the post-Fall 2011 requirements.)</p>

<p>Last thing on IU- when my son was applying I discovered I know a handful of alumni (they’re everywhere :relaxed:) and I have never once heard a negative comment about the school. People really rave about it. It’s a small town with a giant U, and the music school provides a large part of the entertainment & culture for a broad surrounding area. The faculty mostly live right there, they don’t disappear too often. And there are a ridiculous number of performances all the time. </p>

<p>The early deadline surprised us (Nov. 1) as did the high application fee, but it all worked out in the end.</p>

<p>Re CSULB, I think my son could have been admitted as a Comp major, and potentially started lessons early, had we followed up. I suspect there are more options than what is advertised. However, the 13-unit requirement makes it very tough to fit everything into 4 years, unless perhaps you have AP credit. It really does seem like a good program. And you can’t beat the atmosphere. It’s a lovely place.</p>

<p>Good luck! I’m sure it’ll work out great.</p>