conflicted in what to major in (music vs. a more "rational/"practical" major)

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>I am applying to college next summer so I know this is quite early, but I am curious about this.</p>

<p>So I have been playing cello for 5 years, and honestly I think I discovered the cello a little bit too late. I really love it a lot and I try to practice as much as I can while balancing my academics. </p>

<p>For reference, the pieces I am currently working on are</p>

<p>Boccherini Cello Concerto in B Flat Major, 1st Mvt. (this is the first concerto from the standard repertoire that I have done)
Shostakovich Cello Sonata in D Minor, Second Mvt. , and
Tarantella (David Popper)
+ a Popper etude, I haven't decided which one though</p>

<p>^I will use 2 of these pieces for my supplement</p>

<p>I asked my teacher at the beginning of my sophomore year if I had a chance at a conservatory because I really want to study music. She said no, because I started cello way too late, and my skill was not as good as the kids who have been playing since they were little. Which, I guess, is partially true, because I have heard of people (same age as I am) who are playing more advanced pieces like Shostakovich Concerto, Dvorak, etc (far above where I am)</p>

<p>Since she told me that, I have been confused of where to go.</p>

<p>The problem is, my parents want me to study something rational/practical, like biology or finance or something like that. I have a slight interest in psychology/neuroscience, but if i had to choose that or cello performance, I'd still choose cello performance. My interest in the sciences/humanities is really too little for me to consider studying it in college. My parents have many friends whose kids have studied music and not end up well, so they want me to be reasonable and choose a major that has a good prospect in terms of income (i guess)</p>

<p>However, like what my teacher said, I don't have much of a chance of getting into a conservatory. The really weird part is that I asked my friend, who is going to SF Conservatory this fall, and she thought that I should still apply to a place like Oberlin, where I can try the college/conservatory combo and see if it fits me. She told me that the # of years I have been playing does not really matter; what matters is the audition video and how I play. </p>

<p>I am confused whether I should (kind of) ignore her advice and apply to a college/conservatory (like Oberlin, not Columbia/Juilliard or anything), or just choose to be undecided/major in something else and just do cello as a side thing in college.</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

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<p>Hi, this a mom of a son who will be starting College (for Chemistry…) in a month , a music teacher, and an Eastman School of Music Alum. Your pieces don’t seem like “Conservatory” level material, but your passion for music is wonderful…I would suggest looking for a college that offers a good B.A. in music and perhaps has an open curriculum, where you could double major, and/or create a kind of interdisciplinary major, to offer more experiences and future earning potential. For example, The University of Rochester offers a B.A. in music, opportunities in it’s Conservatory, Eastman,(e.g. free lessons with amazing doctoral candidates,) and an open curriculum where you could discover new interests that may support or enhance your love of music. There’s digital arts, education, psychology, etc., etc…An open curriculum liberal arts college like Hamilton would also give you freedom to make your connections. Good luck and keep playing!</p>

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<p>I don’t have an answer for you but one thing that I learned a million years ago in college was the difference between studying a subject and doing a subject. I discovered that a lot of things that I loved to learn about and discuss and take classes in I didn’t actually like the nuts and bolts of doing first hand. For example, a lot of social sciences break down to running statistical studies and analyzing census tract data. Studying music might be the learning and practicing and the joy of performance and the doing of it as a career is a lot more and in many ways different.</p>

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<p>There are many colleges where you could major in music and continue to study the cello for a BA rather than a BM, without auditioning, and you could still have a fabulous musical undergrad experience. I think your teacher is right and that you’re way behind most students who would be auditioning for the elite music schools. But that doesn’t mean you can’t find a way to continue studying cello at a high level in college, whether it’s solely for a music degree, or as a double major or even just for lessons and participation in ensembles.</p>

<p>I think you may be under a misapprehension about Oberlin Conservatory - it is just about as competitive as Juilliard. However, you could apply solely to Oberlin College and major in music through the college rather than the conservatory, or double major to please your parents. You would still get a great musical education. The same goes for other liberal arts colleges like Vassar, Williams, Swarthmore, Bard, - all known to have wonderful music departments and great adjunct faculty for lessons. Or larger schools like Tufts, Brandeis, Emory etc. We have no idea where you live, how much your parents can afford to pay for college, what your grades/scores are like - or what kind of environment you’d like for a college. With more information we can give you more colleges to look into. It’s not an all or nothing choice. There are lots of ways you can find a fulfilling college experience that is filled with music.</p>

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<p>Although the purpose of a college education has become more and more vocational, in this day and age of high costs and loan payments, the real value lies in the education, still, and many if not most people end up working in a field that is entirely different from their college major (with the exception of career-focused majors such as engineering, nursing, accounting and so on).</p>

<p>A BA or BM in Music is as good as a bachelor’s in any other subject in terms of prospects for jobs (in or out of the music field), grad schools, or professional schools such as med, law or business. The hard work and discipline of music students is recognized and respected as well. Ironically, biology and psychology are among the worst undergrad majors for job prospects: these subjects generally require grad work to really acquire economic value.</p>

<p>Volunteering, interning and working during college years and summers are very helpful in improving job prospects and clarifying goals. Regardless of major.</p>

<p>You can apply to schools that offer a BA in music, which will also allow you to explore other areas of study. You can enter as an undecided, or as a music major, and will have flexibility and choice for the first two years or even three. Have you taken any theory or music history? Your parents may not be aware that the study of music involves these subjects, as well as musicology, ethnomusicology, composition, electronics and technology. In other words, it can be a worthwhile academic subject.</p>

<p>You can also look into schools that allow a good deal of interdisciplinary work. These schools will most likely include a performance component. One example would be Bennington (google Bennington College Music), Sarah Lawrence. There are many others. Do you like to work independently?</p>

<p>State universities often have good music departments, but if you are doing a BA versus BM, check out the opportunities and classes and access to teachers and ensembles available to you.</p>

<p>Many BA programs do not require audition but have a performance element in classes. It is also possible to get a BA with no performance at all. Finally, you can also major in something else and continue music as an extracurricular (orchestra, ensembles) and do lessons privately, sometimes subsidized by the school.</p>

<p>As Spirit Manager said, folks on this forum can suggest specific schools depending on location, size, affordability and vibe that you want. The main point I am hoping to get across is that music is a perfectly legitimate major for future employment and other opportunities. Check out the thread above about the Myth that Fine Arts Degrees Lead to the Poorhouse :)</p>

<p>Here is a great essay for you and your parents to read about music study options:
<a href=“http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html”>http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>@SpiritManager‌ I live in California, and I think my unweighted GPA is a 3.8/4.0, but that may drop a bit because I did badly last semester. I haven’t taken the SAT yet, but I will this October. I’m not sure what I’m really looking for in a college but I would like better music studies/experience in college. (Like in orchestra and stuff) because my high school orchestra is not that good and I wish I was in a higher level orchestra, even if that means I am not first chair anymore. (The good thing about this is that my friend just told me about some better orchestras that I can audition for, so I hope I will get in next year)</p>

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<p>It’s not too late to audition for youth orchestras for the fall. They usually have auditions in late August/early September. And if money is an issue, they often offer scholarships.</p>

<p>In Southern California look into University of Redlands. It has a strong music department, offers aid, and is not as hard to get into as some other programs. Some of the CSU’s have strong music programs, too. I don’t know if you’d be competitive enough for CSU Long Beach but you could try. CSU Northridge is another. University of the Pacific in Stockton has a good music school. Again, I don’t know whether you’d be competitive enough, but it’s possible. Colleges like Pitzer, Occidental, Loyola Marymount, Whittier will all have adjunct cello teachers with whom you could study. Chapman has a competitive school of music and might be a difficult admit. These are all just in Southern California (mostly.) You can see there are lots of options.</p>

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<p>@SpiritManager‌<br>
Are there any that are out of state?</p>

<p>No, the orchestra I was told about had their auditions in June. </p>

<p>Thank you for responding :)</p>

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<p>I think what I have to offer is pretty much what others have said, that I don’t think based on what you mention you are playing that you would get into a competitive music program for a BM, whether conservatory or music school in a university. When you say you want to study music, what are your thoughts for the future after school? Do you see yourself as a member of an orchestra or a chamber music? Do you see yourself trying to be a private teacher? Or maybe doing gig work, working with an indy rock group, etc? If you see yourself working as a musician, doing so in the classical world would be pretty much next to impossible, especially on cello, that is so competitive and where conservatories at the top level are turning out people playing incredibly well. Even in gig work, a lot of the time you would be competing against the people trained in the top level schools and it would be difficult…</p>

<p>As others have pointed out, there are opportunities to do music in college without doing a BM, and besides the BA (which again, if you are thinking of being a full time professional musician would be difficult), you also can take lessons, play in an orchestra and so forth. At the Ivy league schools, they don’t have undergraduate performance degrees, but they do try to attract musically strong students and as a result have pretty decent orchestras and chamber programs. If you were good enough to get into an ivy league college hypothetically, that option would be open to you (I don’t know if they audition for their orchestras and such…)…so you could probably still do music if you don’t major in it. Obviously, if you feel the passion for it and want to get a BA in music, as others point out, you can get jobs with it pretty much the same way you would with any liberal arts degree that is not directly tied to a field (as opposed to a computer science degree). If you go the BA route with music and then decide it isn’t for you, it is like any other major at that point, you switch majors…</p>

<p>One note, don’t be concerned if you don’t see anything that catches your fancy as a major. In college, it is quite common for kids to change majors, and it is one of the reasons you don’t even have to declare a major until end of sophomore year. The idea that you have to know what to study by the time you enter college is false, so you will have time and opportunity to decide what you want to do when you get there. I would encourage you when applying to schools that you find one with a strong program for non majors (I mean non BM) as one of the criteria. </p>

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<p>Do you want to stay on the West Coast? CSU Long Beach is a great program for music, but not sure if that is the best fit. Check out the Bob Cole conservatory.</p>

<p>Maybe look at Lewis and Clark, University of Puget Sound, the excellent list provided by Spirit Manager.</p>

<p>Let us know of other locations you might consider. Oberlin and Lawrence are great colleges with conservatories, but there are disadvantages possible for musicians not in the conservatory. I am not saying that as a definite but check it out. Macalaster, College of Wooster, Carleton, Grinnell have been mentioned. In general, I like the Colleges that Change LIves website and book (Loren Pope).</p>

<p>You don’t have to have the goal of an orchestra seat to study music :slight_smile: And along with whatever path you want for the performance aspect (extracurricular, curricular, private) you can study music academically and combine it with other subjects too.</p>

<p>Keep working and your enjoyment of cello will only increase! It is very possible that you will be able to continue your development as an artist and that music can be part of your life forever. There are many paths and you will become clearer as you read websites, visit, and talk with people.</p>

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<p>@mylifeisgone195 There are schools everywhere where you could continue with your cello, whether or not you’re on the path to be an orchestral musician, and with solid college orchestras. Besides playing the cello what do you want out of college? What are you looking for as an environment and how much can you afford? There are dozens and dozens of colleges where you can continue with your cello, either as a major or not. And many colleges have strong orchestras. Check out the sticky thread at the top of this forum about Colleges with Good Music Programs.</p>

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<p>@mylifeisgone195 You might check with the youth orchestra that had auditions in June before ruling them out completely. The youth orchestra in my area will often accommodate auditions if they have spots still available after auditions. (It’s not as unlikely as you might think, as students graduate and move. My kids’ orchestras have gone from having an abundance of one instrument to having too few the next year, and we live in a metropolitan area.) Our orchestras also offer a mid-year audition for those who didn’t audition in the spring. </p>

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<p>I just wanted to respond to your discovering music late and concerns that you are too old to make it because you have not been playing since you were a little kid. DO NOT LISTEN TO THOSE WHO TELL YOU, YOU CAN NOT MAKE IT AS A MUSICIAN. If you really want to do music and you are willing to put in the hours and the time and work extremely hard then I promise you, you can. Will you be ready to get into a competitive conservatory program in classical cello in a year? Probably not. But forget about time-lines and think about your long term goals. I agree that a BA program with a good music program might be right for you. But the other option is to take a gap year and study and work like crazy and see if you can bring yourself up to conservatory level. The thing about late learners is that your learning curve is steeper. You can intellectualize what you are doing much more than a 7 year old can and you can use that to help build strength, muscle memory and skill. A gap year where you worked might also help you sort out what it is that you really want to do with music (teach, perform, compose, etc……) and also how you feel about other interests. There is no reason to rush college. The advantage of a well thought out Gap year is that students who take it and then enter college are better prepared to get their money’s worth out of the four year experience. Rather than using those four years to just grow up, they are able to focus on goals and interests and pursue passions. Some parents will balk at the idea of a gap year for fear that it does not make financial sense. But it is better to enter college a year later knowing who you are then it is to go and then find you are lost and confused and need to take time off because you have crashed.</p>

<p>As for starting late. My DD took her first ballet class when she was in middle school. She was going to have to compete against girls who were dancing since they were toddlers. She decided she loved it and wanted to do ballet. We have a relative who used to dance with the American Ballet Theater who gave her a biography of a famous ballerina who also started late in life. My daughter found that very inspirational. My DD eventually switched from ballet to theater to nutrition to becoming a nurse practitioner and is now thinking she will go into public health, with us supporting her at every junction in her pursuits. She went from hating science and avoiding science classes to having to take pre-med classes to get admitted to an accelerated masters nurse practitioner program. Some might look at her journey and think that she wasted her time and our money going through all those interests, but everything builds on itself. She is able to walk into meet with patients with poise and body language that puts them at ease. She is able to “act” when having to deal with difficult patients and their relatives. She is not at all afraid to give talks and presentations because of her theater and dance training. </p>

<p>The lesson is, it is important that you follow your heart and not worry so much about what others say you SHOULD be doing. Life is too short not to follow your interests and you never know where it will lead. </p>

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<p>@mylifeisgone195‌ I’m not familiar enough with the cello literature to pass judgment on what is “conservatory level,” but in addition to “what you play” - and you can get a sense of that by looking at school websites to see their audition requirements - the most important factor is “how you play.” That includes both technique and musicality. Many if not most audition panels would prefer you to play a piece well within your reach and perform it well rather than stretch beyond your current capabilities. We know several late starters who have worked really hard and made it through undergrad and grad programs in music - not at the tippytop schools, but at perfectly respectable institutions, and they’re building a career in a field they love. They’re not world-class soloists, but they’re members of local orchestras, giggers, teachers, etc. </p>

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<p>@StacJip‌ Hi, thanks :slight_smile: yeah, i am considering taking a gap year so I can learn more about music, because for the most part I have been doing theory and performance, not anything like composing, teaching etc. </p>

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<p>You don’t need a gap year because you haven’t composed or taught. Some musicians haven’t done much theory, either :slight_smile: </p>

<p>But if you want to progress on the cello for an additional year and apply to conservatory, you can do a gap year. It is a choice. You can do a BA somewhere, or try to get into a BM program that fits where you are, or you can take a year and practice, take lessons and classes, perform and apply to a presumably more demanding program.</p>

<p>I think it is great that people are encouraging you to follow music if that is what you really want to do. StacJip and Stradmom know their stuff and you can rely on their advice, along with others who have posted :)</p>

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<p>You have gotten some great advice. Please don’t think that you have to go to a conservatory to have a great musical experience in college. There are many colleges and universities that would love to have a dedicated cello player in their orchestra. </p>

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<p>It is one thing to study music as a passion, and as others have pointed out, including myself, there are a variety of ways to keep going on the cello in college, in a BA program, or taking lessons and such as a non major. It is another thing, though, to tell someone starting late on the cello that they have a realistic shot of making it as a musician on the instrument. It isn’t only about learning curves, there are physiological reasons why with string instruments after a certain age it is very, very difficult to develop fully into playing the instrument, it is directly analogous to learning another language after the age of 13 or so, where because of brain wiring hardening learning to speak truly like a native becomes extremely diminished. Kids who take gap years generally are kids who have been playing for a long time and just miss out on their auditions, where they are close, not people trying to make up for years of missed learning and practicing. Put it this way, almost all the kids who audition at the competitive music programs have been playing for years, with private lessons and pretty intensive practicing, and only a small percentage of them get into a top level program, I would bet that if you took the entire pool of kids auditioning to the top programs and figured out what percentage of them got into one of the top programs, it probably would be in the realm of maybe 15%…then the argument is you go to a less competitive school, work hard, and get ready for grad school, but the problem with that is, the kids who got into the top level programs have 4 years to get better, so not only is the person making up for the missed years, now they have to catch up to the 4 years the kids who got in have had…</p>

<p>I am all for kids going for their dreams, but I also think that kids need to know what they are facing. It would be great if all the hard work in the world, all the desire and passion, could make up the differences, but quite bluntly, it doesn’t. Stacjip talked about her DD that studied ballet, starting late, but the reality of that world is you can study ballet, but it doesn’t mean you are going to make it into ballet. Being around the SAB program for kids, and knowing several students in it, the reality is those kids start way young and the ones who make it in fact started young, it is the kind of thing that if you haven’t been chosen for a company by the time you are in your late teens, you aren’t going to make it at that level,it is brutal and it is rough. </p>

<p>Like music, I am sure there are ballerinas who made it starting late, but like with music, I wonder what generation that was. Cello is attracting the same kind of students violin and piano do, it is a world I am very, very familiar with, and it is at a competitive level that is just staggering, I have seen the level that is out there, seen what it takes, and it simply is not the world of the past where someone with pluck and vigor could succeed in the way we would like it to work. Dreaming of egalitarianism, that Horatio Alger hard work and pluck will conquer all, but it sadly doesn’t work like that.</p>

<p>That said, OP, if you choose to buck the odds and go for it, I would be one of those cheering you on, because I also believe that nothing is wasted. If you seriously want to attempt to study cello performance, willing to put the hours and hours and hours in, the hard work, the discipline, if you are iwlling to shoot for it, maybe take a gap year, then maybe apply to a less competitive program and work your tail off, if despite everything you wish to do it still, go for it, the experience won’t be wasted. I don’t like what is out there, to be honest, there is a lot wrong with music education, I think quite frankly a lot of it has been gamed and has beaten more than a bit of the art out of the whole process, so I am not defending it…but I also don’t want you going into it, putting your heart into it, really trying, without knowing the reality of it, I would be doing you or any other kid no favors by doing that. </p>

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<p>musicprnt-you are right that it is a competitive world out there. And everything seems to be getting more competitive….even getting in to grad school these days is a major stressor….just go over to GradCafe.com and read the forums there.</p>

<p>But from what I can tell the most successful adults are not people who waste energy focusing on competition or worrying about what others are doing. Instead they have an internal drive and vision that propels them to do what they want to do. </p>

<p>When my daughter was pursuing ballet, I knew based on her body type that it was unlikely she was going to become a prima ballerina or make it in the ballet world. But her study of ballet gave her poise and helped shape her interest in movement and is what probably helped her get into a top conservatory for experimental theater. I was sad when my daughter decided to move on from theater and performing. And yet she performs every day at work. Her professor gave her rave reviews when she did her first real internal exam. That is acting.</p>

<p>I have another child who is just about to start a Phd Program in Mathematics. This child had a dream of getting a PhD in mathematics but he had a HUGE mountain to climb. He had significant learning disabilities that made academics painfully difficult. By his junior year in HS he had not yet managed to pass a high school level mathematics class. Math (especially pure math) is a lot of like music and the field is filled with adults who showed great promise at a young age. My son was one determined young man….and once he got the help he needed to overcome his learning disability he pushed himself to learn and study and advance in mathematics. He went to a small liberal arts school that is not particularly known for sending students to Phd Programs in math, but he kept his dream and worked with faculty to create the program he needed. One summer he did an NSF REU (Research experience for undergraduates), his roommate was telling him about a friend of his who went to Princeton and wanted to be a math major. This boy entered college with a lot more course work under his belt than our son who was behind in math. He had all the AP classes that ivy league kids take. The boy met with a professor who told him that he was already far behind and should look at other majors. </p>

<p>My son was lucky…he didn’t have anyone telling him he couldn’t do what he wanted to do, even though it is very competitive to get into top PhD programs in mathematics. He focused. He sacrificed….and this past spring it paid off. He applied to a range of programs …including a handful of serious reaches. He was hoping to just get into one of his safeties. But much to his surprise he got into more than half the programs he applied to including several of his reach schools. </p>

<p>The moral of the STORY: Block out all those who try to scare you away. Block out all those who say it can’t be done. Block out all those who tell you it is a waste of time. </p>

<p>At some point you might hit a wall and realize that you are not cut out for being a musician or maybe you will decide you do not want to do music anymore. As with my daughter and ballet the time spent pursuing something you care so passionately for will not be wasted and will contribute to what ever you choose to do next. </p>

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<p>@‌ stacjip-
I understand what you are saying and I am not someone who thinks there is one right way to do anything. You made a point that when your daughter studies ballet, you already said you suspect she wouldn’t make it because of her body, which meant going in with your eyes open. With your S in math, he knew his challenges, he understood how tough it was but persevered through, and that is rock solid awesome. </p>

<p>The thing to me is someone knowing those odds, so they can make decisions based on the reality and decide whether they have the desire to face those kinds of odds. With music the reason I try to be blunt is that there are far too many people out there who have ideas about music, either as it existed 30 years ago, or myth, that you can have music as a ‘hobby’ and then ‘get serious in college’, we have kids who suddenly decide their senior year they want to be an opera singer and so forth, and they need to realize what the odds are against them are and let them know what it really means. Nothing is impossible as long as it doesn’t violate physical laws, but the reality of music is that for example, as with the OP, trying to professionally make it as a cello player in classical music with their background is kind of like going to an open tryout as joe sixpack and making a pro team (it has happened, re the movie “Invincible”, one of my favorite movies), but I also think that they need to understand what they are facing, too, and that to make it they are going to need a lot of dedication and grit and that even then the odds are way stacked against them. Like I said, if they see the reality and still say they want to go for it, I’ll cheer them on, because then they are making it going in eyes open. </p>

<p>What worries me is someone like the OP in this thread or others, who decide to try music based on some myth or having been told music can be a matter of being a ‘natural’ and such, find somewhere to study, and when the reality hits look back with regret. I am someone who doesn’t see music training as a waste if someone doesn’t do it, I think in some ways it is more valuable than going the academic route, but I also want kids to understand the reality of trying to be a musician. I don’t know why, but based on experience, a lot of the kids coming in thinking they want to do classical music, if I said to them “why don’t you try to make it as a rock or pop star”, will tell me “you know how hard that is, I don’t stand a chance”, yet assume that because you can go to school for classical music that somehow that makes it different…</p>

<p>I hear where you and others are coming from, my attitude is not all that different, I am just afraid that kids will interpret enthusiasm, saying ‘go for it’ to mean “of course you can make it”, hence wanting to make sure they go in with their eyes open and in the end, whatever happens, they can say “I made my decision, it worked out/didn’t work out, but man, it was a good ride”</p>