Confused about the whole medical field and whatnot

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>Ok so I know I want to be a doctor, but I'm not sure exactly what I want to specialize in. I will probably major in Biology, and I'd like to get into JHU, but I've never even been out east before and I will probably not have the opportunity to visit the campus. SO, right now I'm very confused about the importance of the university one attends before applying for a medical school. Could I not just go to University of Colorado at Boulder/Denver, or CSU (all of them are my safeties) and have the same chance to get into the medical school at JHU with ivy kids as my rivals? As long as I do well in whatever University I decide to go to, do I stand a good chance of getting accepted into the top medical schools? Where you graduated from medical school is the one that counts right?</p>

<p>Sorry if I didn't make sense in some parts...I'm quite a newbie when it comes to the whole college deal (even though I'll be a senior this fall o_O )</p>

2

<p>Doing well where ever you are is a panacea for admission into medical school. If it comes down to you and a candidate with the exact same credentials and interview, then perhaps undergrad school may help, but the odds of such a scenario...fairly slim.</p>

<p>Getting into any medical school is an accomplishment in and of itself. If you have the stats to get into a school like JHU, then it really won't matter where you went. The thing is that because of its name (JHU) recognition, every pre-med with a 3.8, and a 35 on the MCAT is looking there. JHU has its choice of the very top students (every med school has its choice of great students though - that's what happens when roughly only 1/2 of all applicants get accepted to any school). </p>

<p>The other thing to realize is that there are only 125 medical schools in the US. The difference between the best and the worst is really not that big of deal. Besides they are all teaching to the exact same tests (USMLE steps 1, 2CS, 2CK, and 3), and doing a good job on it - with a 92% passage rate nationwide on the first try on step 1(basic sciences). Any difference in the average board scores from school to school is likely more attributal to the differences in average entering MCAT score since there is roughly a 90% correlation between MCAT Verbal Reasoning Scores and USMLE scores (the "if you are good at one standardized test, you are good at other standardized tests" idea).</p>

<p>Now, if you are just planning on going into regular private practice, then even where you went to medical school really doesn't matter all that much. Residencies look at board scores, rank, letters of rec, and the interview much more than where you went. Academic medicine (teaching med students) is more concerned with prestige but I've never seen it quantified as to how much it matters in respect to other factors.</p>

<p>So what you should be looking for is a college that is the absolute best fit for you. It should be a place where you can grow academically and socially, a place where the best opportunities FOR YOU to do all the necessary things that med schools look for: GPA, MCAT, volunteering, research, involvement, leadership, and so on. So find a place you love.</p>

<p>The same goes for major. Major in something you enjoy, don't think you have to be a bio major. The stats from the AAMC show that major does not matter as the majors of matriculants to med school are in nearly the exact same ratio as majors of applicants. I was a sociology major, another poster on this board was an econ major, and friends in my med school class were polisci, music, art, history, psych, spanish, business, excercise science and various engineering fields. I have pre-med friends who are athletic training and guitar performance. So long as you take the required pre-med courses you will be fine.</p>

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<p>It is true that if you do just as well at UC or CSU of anywhere else, you will have just as much chance to get into any med-school as anybody else, including the Ivy kids.</p>

<p>The difference is that it probably isn't as easy to do as well at schools like UC or CSU as it is at many Ivies, especially at places like HYP. That's because those top schools provide students with lots of hand-holding and coaching to help them craft the best application they can, with heavy prep-work on interviews, dedicated pre-med advisors who will write them strong rec letters, lots of advising on how to get good EC's, and so forth. Basically, students from these top schools have an entire team backing them up and primping them to maximize the strength of their application. That doesn't mean that everybody from these schools will get in - as, every year, some students from Harvard will get rejected from every med-school to which they apply. But the point is, all of those advising services reduces the chances of something like this happening. </p>

<p>Furthermore, a lot of the Ivies practice grade inflation to the extent that it may actually be EASIER to get good grades at the Ivies than at state schools, and almost certainly easier to avoid bad grades. At many if not most Ivy classes, it's quite rare to get a grade lower than a C-minus, and except at Cornell, almost nobody actually flunks out of an Ivy League schoool. In contrast, at most state schools, flunking out is a real danger. </p>

<p>The point is, it is true that if you can construct a strong med-school application, then you will have as good of a shot of getting in as anybody else. It's just that Ivy students often times find it easier to construct that strong application.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your long post bigredmed...it made think: if attending the right college thats fits you is the most important thing, why is it that everyone is clamoring about the ivies and other top schools? Is it just for bragging rights?</p>

<p>And so you're saying that even if I attend JHU for undergrad school, my chances of getting accepted into its medical school are no greater than those of a student who attended, let's say, Denver University?</p>

<p>The competition between students at top colleges such as JHU also scares me. Does ranking play a significant role in med school admission?</p>

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<p>Ah.. thanks sakky you cleared a lot of things up for me. </p>

<p>You talk about the Ivies a lot, but I doubt I will be accepted into any, since I am not THAT great. Maybe Cornell but that's it. The things you said, do you think they pertain to great schools that are nonivies, such as JHU or University of Chicago?</p>

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<p>Just out of curiosity have you looked into any accelerated or 8 year medical programs? If you're sure you want to be a doctor, such a program could give you a much more pleasant/interesting undergrad experience.</p>

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<p>Why looking towards the Ivies? I don't know...bragging rights, prestige, stroking of one's ego, adherence to the idea that going to an Ivy particularly matters, a misguided idea of what college is/can be, overzealous parents...there are a multitude of reasons why people want to go to these schools and for some, they absolutely are the right fit. I just tend to think that many people on this website have very skewed vision on the opportunities at state schools. There are a lot of snobs here, but I suppose that's to be expected.</p>

<p>But what's important to take away is that you won't be at a disadvantage in the eyes of the an admissions committee. All the things that sakky mentioned can be found at a state university. And at any college you go, you have to know where to go to find these things. It just may not be as obvious. But this is where going to pre-med club meetings, talking with upper classmen, talking to your profs, and looking for advice from multiple sources can make up for anything that isn't handed to you. I can tell you the names and office locations on my undergraduate campus for all the resources Sakky listed.</p>

<p>And if you are in danger of flunking out of any college then you need to rethink going into medicine anyways. </p>

<p>I have a personal dislike of accelerated programs (even though I was accepted to UMKC). While many students think they are sure they want to be a doctor when leaving HS, I did enough recruiting for my undergrad institution while a student there to know that an incredible % of students who start out pre-med won't stay there through the first year. The stats of how often most students change their major back me up on that. Which is not to say that these programs don't have value for some, but they are not a decision to just "opt" for. 8 year programs don't draw my ire any where near as much.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
But what's important to take away is that you won't be at a disadvantage in the eyes of the an admissions committee. All the things that sakky mentioned can be found at a state university. And at any college you go, you have to know where to go to find these things. It just may not be as obvious. But this is where going to pre-med club meetings, talking with upper classmen, talking to your profs, and looking for advice from multiple sources can make up for anything that isn't handed to you. I can tell you the names and office locations on my undergraduate campus for all the resources Sakky listed

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<p>Yeah, but what about the Ivy grade inflation? Is there an office that will help you with that? </p>

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And if you are in danger of flunking out of any college then you need to rethink going into medicine anyways.

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</p>

<p>Oh, I don't know about that. I think that depends most strongly on the philosophy of the school you are at. I happen to know quite a few graduates from MIT who came fairly close to flunking out who probably could have enjoyed successful medical careers if they had just gone to an easier school. Perhaps you'd like to try taking some classes at MIT and then you can come back and tell me how easy it is to avoid failing? The point is, there are some pretty darn difficult schools out there.</p>

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<p>You are changing your point on me sakky. </p>

<p>
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In contrast, at most state schools, flunking out is a real danger.

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</p>

<p>That was your point, and that is what I was addressing. Yes, I agree there are some difficult schools out there, but I'm sure that most people are aware of them. Those are the consequences of choosing to go to such a difficult school. But medical school is difficult too, and if you aren't able demonstrate the ability to handle challenging course work, then I have to repeat what I previously said.</p>

<p>As for the grade inflation, if you are really relying on that to help get you into medical school, then I also believe you need to examine what is going on with your studies and motivation. (although it does perhaps explain why the last three students from Harvard that attended my medical school all had to repeat their first year)</p>

<p>I mean, I keep hearing about grade inflation, but how big of factor can it really be? .1 of a grade point, .2? Is a 73% (a C- at my undergrad) all of a sudden a B? Or is just that the tests are easier, and thus people get better grades? </p>

<p>In the end, it's a factor, but likely one that shouldn't be counted on to garner an acceptance letter. If someone is so boarderline in GPA at to have grade inflation be a factor, then there are certainly issues at hand that need to be addressed. I mean, I had a fairly low GPA at 3.49, but I made up for it with an excellent MCAT score, lots of involvement/leadership and solid volunteering. If someone is at a GPA much lower than mine, that they can't make up for in other ways, then something is up and grade inflation to a decent/acceptable GPA is dangerous.</p>

<p>As I've said before: doing well, at whatever undergrad institution one attends, is a panacea for med school admissions. That's what it all comes down to in the end.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
That was your point, and that is what I was addressing. Yes, I agree there are some difficult schools out there, but I'm sure that most people are aware of them. Those are the consequences of choosing to go to such a difficult school. But medical school is difficult too, and if you aren't able demonstrate the ability to handle challenging course work, then I have to repeat what I previously said.

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<p>There are some state schools that are unusually difficult. There are also some classes WITHIN every school that are unusually difficult. Sadly, as myself and others have observed and discussed numerous times, the med-school admissions process rewards academic cowardice. In other words, for the purposes of getting admitted, it's often times better to not take a difficult class at all then to take it and get a bad grade. </p>

<p>
[quote]
As for the grade inflation, if you are really relying on that to help get you into medical school, then I also believe you need to examine what is going on with your studies and motivation. (although it does perhaps explain why the last three students from Harvard that attended my medical school all had to repeat their first year)</p>

<p>I mean, I keep hearing about grade inflation, but how big of factor can it really be? .1 of a grade point, .2? Is a 73% (a C- at my undergrad) all of a sudden a B? Or is just that the tests are easier, and thus people get better grades?

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</p>

<p>Nobody is saying that you should 'rely' on grade inflation. But, in borderline cases, it helps. You mention about how some Harvard people had to repeat the first year of med-school. Yeah, but so what? At least they got in. Plenty of people don't even get in. I'm sure that plenty of them would love to trade places with those Harvard repeatees. </p>

<p>Grade inflation usually presents itself at the lower grading spectrum. For example, a grade below a C at a state school will often times turn into a no-grade at an inflated school because of generous course-drop policies. Or at worst, it will become a C. It's practically impossible to get a D or an F at an inflated school, but that is very possible at many state schools. Let's face it. A D or an F will really kill you when it comes to med-school admissions. </p>

<p>
[quote]
As I've said before: doing well, at whatever undergrad institution one attends, is a panacea for med school admissions. That's what it all comes down to in the end.

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<p>Yeah, but you keep saying that as if everybody can just do well. This is simply not true. Forget about MIT. Let's use Georgia Tech as an example, as Georgia Tech is a state school. Not everybody can just go to Georgia Tech and do well. GTech is a very difficult school. Plenty of students work like dogs at GTech, and STILL get bad grades. If they had gone to an easier, more inflated school, they would get better grades and thus make themselves eligible for med-school. </p>

<p>The problem is that the system is at fault because it rewards people who are 'academic cowards'. The system should stop rewarding these people. But until it does, we have to agree that grade inflation works. It shouldn't work, and I wish it didn't work, but sadly, I have to admit that it does work.</p>

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<p>A bit off topic from what you're discussing here... but I noticed that many med school require at least one year of physics, with lab work. Now why the heck is that? Biology, chemistry, and humanities courses I definitely understand. But physics?? Are you going to have to throw a heart for transplant across the room or something? =P</p>

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<p>There are actually several basic physics principles that a working understanding of helps in medicine...notably electricity, circuits (helpful to think as blood vessels and use Kirchoff's laws), and fluid dynamics. </p>

<p>Further more, physics is a good "process" class. Physics tests are typically word problems, require you to sift out the relevant information, recognize what is most important, figure out what you need to know - if there is any extra information not given to you directly, and finally use the information to get the answer. It's somewhat similar to dealing with patients, taking a history, doing a physical, running lab tests, creating a differential diagnosis, finalizing a diagnosis and determining a treatment plan. That sort of "what do we know so far, and what more information do I want to know" questioning is valuable.</p>

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<p>Out of curiosity, where did you attend for undergraduate school bigred?</p>

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<p>Penn State Schreyers Honors College has a 100% accecptance rate to med schools.</p>

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<p>I also think that Physics is one of those classes they put on there to weed out those who want to make a lot of money from those who really want to pursue a medical carreer. Hell, I hate physics to death, but I'll take it if I have to for med school.</p>

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<p>Que. about a paradox in med school admissions...</p>

<p>So,...Is it true that the 'system' favors and rewards "academic cowardice" due to Medical schools' desire to climb/stay higher up the US News Rankings? or does it do so to maintain excellent top-tier residency placement stats in order to attract top students?</p>

<p>For example, why is Wash U. at St. Louis (NO OFFENCE) the 'most selective' school in terms of MCATs and GPA rather than Harvard, JHU, U.Penn? Does this school disregard admitting those with lower GPAs and MCAT scores more than the H,JHU,UPenn? Why? ---is it to remain 'the most selective' , and/or to jump of the US News Ladder (although I do understand that this is not too important)...</p>

<p>TTH.</p>

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<p>I think the process works this way for a couple of reasons.</p>

<p>1.) Researching courses in depth is a lot of work for adcoms. Admissions committees have not yet reached the point where arbitrage is profitable - to speak plainly, their system of "rewarding academic cowardice" has not yet gotten so bad that GPA is not one of the better predictors of medical school performance, and so they haven't yet been pushed to work harder.</p>

<p>2.) Philosophies vary a great deal from school to school; it may simply be that Wash U's philosophy is that standardized tests matter more than, say, Harvard seems to think they do... Harvard, by contrast, may simply care more about extracurriculars than Wash U does.</p>

<p>3.) I've been surprised to learn that medical schools do genuinely care about their US News Rankings - it's not all-consuming, of course, but schools do care about it. In my (very) limited experience, medical schools seem to care more about their rankings than undergraduate schools do.</p>

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<p>Understanding physics (for example, thermodynamics) is necessary to master chemistry although not required merely to get a decent grade. Understanding mechanics is needed to make sense of certain anatomical concepts (e.g., the mechanical advantage of tendon pulleys) and physiological concepts (e.g., nonlinear increase in myocardial wall stress with increasing radius). Understanding E&M is necessary to understand nerve function, EKG's, the consequences to electrolyte disorders as well as some aspects of organic chemistry in its application to pharmacology.</p>

<p>In place of understanding a dozen key principles from physics, it is possible to memorize a few thousand facts from biology, chemistry, anatomy and physiology.</p>

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<p>
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It is true that if you do just as well at UC or CSU of anywhere else, you will have just as much chance to get into any med-school as anybody else, including the Ivy kids.

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</p>

<p>So it's not going to kill me that I'll be going to UCSD?
But I am a bit daunted after hearing that the average GPA of students after their freshman year is 2.85. Oh my.</p>

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<p>Physics is actually quite useful. You don't need a huge amount of it, but some does come in handy. Also difficult to understand a lot of basic chemistry without at least a little physics. The body is a biochemical machine, so you need a background.</p>

<p>I would love to see some evidence for the whole Ivy-grade-inflation claim. As best I can tell, gpa's are quite similar at most elite private colleges, Ivy or otherwise, and quite high. They are lower at state universities, but the elite privates have higher-scoring students in the admit pool. So the grades should be higher. If the difference is greater than explained by the entry characteristics, and the mix of majors, then no one has shown it, and there is plenty of data out there.</p>

<p>In a study of performance in medical school, it was found that MCAT score and college GPA predicted med school grades, but that selectivity of undergraduate college did not. If the most selective colleges are grade inflated, then selectivity of college should have been a negative predictor of med school grades. It was not.</p>