<p>So your contention is that Swarthmore is more cliquish than "virtually everywhere else I've ever been or heard of"? Even though many of the places you've heard of have racially segregated dorms.</p>
<p>And that the Honors Program is at historic levels of participation only because Swarthmore is recruiting little androids who don't know any better and that, if they were only really smart, they'd know the Honors Program is really a fraud?</p>
<p>BTW, how can a voluntary program be a "con"? If it's not for you, don't do it. I take it you think Swarthmore should do away with the Honors Program?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Is consistently constructing strawman arguments what they teach at Williams? I already explained why it's a con. Read my previous post again.</p>
<p>This is a personal opinion. I think a lot of students like it there, but Swarthmore isn't in the city. For a city school, I would say try Penn, Drexel or Temple. Then you really do have to like Philly.</p>
<h1>"The honors program is too rigid to account for everyone's preferences. This would not be a problem if honors students didn't receive preferential treatment from professors hoping to mold people into the next great academics... in their image of what the next great academics should be."</h1>
<p>I have been struck by how many good courses there are outside of the Honors seminars. There are not the huge numbers of offerings as at other larger schools, but the courses are there. I have only recently come round to that opinion, because I was used to the huge number of classes my other child had to pick from at a larger university.</p>
<p>This is a personal opinion. I think a lot of students like it there, but Swarthmore isn't in the city. For a city school, I would say try Penn, Drexel or Temple. Then you really do have to like Philly.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What do you think "IMO" means? It means that's my opinion. However, I should point out that it's not just my opinion. Philadelphia is currently ranked the 5th</a> most miserable city in the nation according to Forbes. And, yes, Swarthmore is not a city school, but its proximity to Philadelphia as a "world class city" is often cited as a plus. I'm saying it's not a plus, because Philadelphia is a toilet. Swarthmore itself, the town, is pretty unexceptional and largely irrelevant to anything that goes on on campus.</p>
<p>Well, NYC was ranked #4 "most miserable city" by Forbes, and a lot of people like going to school there.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, Philly does have a lot going on, more than a lot of places, and is easy to get around without a car. The subway is right there just a few steps off of campus, as well.</p>
<p>Take it from one who knows some really miserable cities and towns: Philly is better than a lot of places!</p>
<p>I'm done arguing. You were obviously miserable at Swarthmore and I think you've made yourself abundantly clear that you think any high school senior would have to have rocks in their head to even consider such a wretched place.</p>
<p>
[quote=interesteddad]
I'm done arguing. You were obviously miserable at Swarthmore and I think you've made yourself abundantly clear that you think any high school senior would have to have rocks in their head to even consider such a wretched place.
You never even made an argument. For example, this is just more ad hominem and yet another strawman. I'm glad you're done though, because it's ridiculous.</p>
<p>ID: In the real world, most colleges and universities have "theme housing", i.e. racially segregated housing which elevates "cliques" to a higher order of magnitude.</p>
<p>I think I understand what youre trying to say with this but I think the negative connotation (to be specific, segregated and cliques) is undeserved. BTW, I partied enough at Swats Black Cultural Center to know that its also a residence although that may be differentnow.</p>
<p>In my experience, segregated housing is often (strangely) a complaint more by white folks than by the minority students who choose to live there. There are several groups who benefit from themehousing. 1st, some students of color who attend elite schools come from backgrounds where there are no other minorities and college is the 1st real opportunity to really interact with others who have gone thru a shared experienc. For example, other than my sister, brother and I, the only other minority person in our public school was my best friend who was Jewish. I didnt live in Asian housing at HC, but I understand how it could have been a great resource for some young individuals beginning to form their identity. 2nd, some students of color also come from a background where there are no/few white people around and the transition to a school where at least 60% are white, many suburban, most well intentioned but some occasionally clumsy when interacting with students of color (especially URMs), is a new experience that can take several years for minority students to adjust to. Having a home place for these students (if they need it) to then go out and explore the larger community is important as well. These places can also be a good experience for interested white students to visit (always open to the campus) to learn <em>with</em> (not about!) friends who are minorities where the power/social dynamics put the white person in the minority and out of their comfort zone.</p>
<p>Finally, a LAC experience is the definition of integration. You live on a small campus of only 1200-2000 kids, made smaller by the isolated geography of some/ lack of a consortium for others, eat in 1-2 dining halls, go to one plenary, go to one Screw, choose between only a certain # of classes, ect Worrying about segregated housing in this larger context where students can interact with one another is a detail in the greater scheme of LAC social dynamics.</p>
<p>"There is plenty of healthy food in Swat's dining hall. I didn't realize that the salads, cereals, fresh fruits, sandwiches, and vegetarian entrees were all fried too."</p>
<p>salads - no nutritional value
cereals - highly processed. ultimately unhealthy for you
fresh fruits - let's be honest; they're not fresh
sandwiches - if i wanted to make my own food all day (esp sandwiches) i'd just forget about using the meal plan
vegetarian entries - yes, those are fried too</p>
<p>""Any student who could get into swarthmore obviously could do much better grade-wise anywhere else, and not have to go through the unnecessary 1-2 years of extra education simply to compensate for a lower-than-accepted-average GPA."
Uhh.... I'm not so sure. Swarthmore isn't exclusive in its practice of 'weeding kids out.'"</p>
<p>Look - there's a reason why many graduate schools rank Swarthmore as the single hardest school in terms of grading. The real question is, how much do we get compensated for this? My guess is probably not enough.</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but could we please limit this conversation to SWARTHMORE STUDENTS AND ALUM ONLY?? I know some parents would like to believe that they got the best for their tuition buck, or that their child deserved much better, but the real experts on this subject are those who have ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED Swarthmore College, and not people who reference the statistics/facts/menus/policies posted on various websites. </p>
<p>Also, I find the parents who basically brag about how well their child has done at Swarthmore (and therefore implicate that other students' troubles must be a result of their personal failures) to be incredibly insulting. Has it occurred to you that your child might have had certain advantages that others have not, including socio-economic status (not all of our parents are professors, doctors, or lawyers that bring in lots cultural capital and disposable income) or even the advantage of being a local (those who live closer by tend to obtain higher GPAs) or simply got slightly luckier than others (which ultimately manifests itself as a higher grade)?</p>
<p>Please stop making excuses for an institution whose failures students are exposing and therefore initiating a process that may indeed lead to positive change. For example, a Student Union does not exist for Swarthmore, and a lot of criticism needs to begin before it does. Not to mention the high school senior looking for his best fit needs to know the CONS of Swarthmore College (a topic that this thread is exclusively dedicated towards!).</p>
<p>You should actually research some of the things you are posting about, "swatinform."</p>
<p>For example, a student center IS being considered for the Swat 2020 stuff. I've spoken to people on the building committee (it has a more official name), and I know they've discussed the topic repeatedly and even have some distant plans.</p>
<p>Honestly, I think interesteddad knows more about Swat than most students here.</p>
<p>Personally, even while I don't really party, I recognize that there is also no good place on campus for large scale events that don't work in LPAC.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To be honest, those are rather lacking.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They may be. However, someone earlier in this thread flat out lied and said that Swarthmore didn't have a student center.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Personally, even while I don't really party, I recognize that there is also no good place on campus for large scale events that don't work in LPAC.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Which is basically, the Halloween party, right?</p>
<p>My impression is that having Sager split up among multiple venues, some wilder than others, has worked out pretty well in accomodating different degrees of party animal in the student body. </p>
<p>The main problem with the Halloween Party at Tarble seems to be that the students trash the wood floor if booze is allowed upstairs. What the students need is a dump they can trash instead of a really nice venue. </p>
<p>Sharples is really the appropriate venue for the one or two large all-campus parties each year.</p>
<p>I mean, we don't have one particular student center, that's true. People do hang out in Shane Lounge or the the game room in Tarble, but I don't think that either really count as one particular student center. Students don't really "center" there, haha. They're both nice spaces, of course. And as was mentioned, it is something we're considering in the midst of our 2020 plans.</p>
<p>Sharples isn't really an appropriate venue for any <em>parties</em> - we have events there, like Screw and Primal Scream, but it's not quite a party since Sharples is, first and foremost, our dining hall.</p>
<p>And yes, students do need one party space that isn't Paces or Upper Tarble, as one is tiny and the other is too fancy to accommodate all-together parties. It's kind of frustrating to have parties in several places. :]</p>
<p>My S is a junior at Swat and loves it, although he has commented on many of the same cons listed in this thread, although not with the same 'enthusiasm.' (!) When the happiness level is high overall, then the cons don't take on so much importance. Most of Swarthmore's shortcomings are due to its small size, I think, and almost exclusive focus on academics. While the academic facilities are top-notch, the athletic facilities are old and the dorms are a bit shaky. (My S had mice in his dorm room his first year, then last year lived in a basement room with wet carpet and mildew, which was only eliminated when we purchased a room dehumidifier, which I don't think should have been our financial responsibility). Sharples food is greasy and not particularly flavorful, but what else is new with college food? This year, he's off campus, cooking for himself, and loving it. You go to Swat for the coursework and close interactions with faculty (my S has weekly dinners at profs' houses, emails profs back and forth regularly, and office hours are extended and loose, basically whenever the prof is around, and this is true I think for most (all?) students, not just my S). Guess this post isn't really on topic anymore ("cons"). The workload is heavy (he's in Honors) but still gets to Philly regularly, and is very active in extracurriculars. Still, I wouldn't recommend going there if you don't love to study and learn -- driven by it. If you're interested in the more social aspects of collegiate life, I think you'll be unhappy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
(My S had mice in his dorm room his first year
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've never lived in a dorm that didn't have mice, including the year I moved into a brand new dorm that had never been occupied. All it takes is one package of Reece's Peanut Butter Cups for mice to storm a dorm like the beaches of Normandy.</p>
Are you saying you've never lived in a dorm room that didn't have mice? That sounds like some bad luck to me, or maybe you didn't have the cleanest room on campus. I went for four years in dorms and never had mice in my dorm room, and I think I even had some Reese's Peanut Butter Cups a few times.
[quote=momuv2]
Still, I wouldn't recommend going there if you don't love to study and learn -- driven by it.
That's good advice, but people who love to study and learn and who are driven by it also shouldn't assume they'll like Swarthmore. For some of that group, Swarthmore will not be a good fit.</p>
<p>Reading this thread actually has pointed out to me the strengths of Swarthmore, as per the emphasis on academics, and for this I have to thank the posters. I think what it lacks are the special programs and colleges of larger universities, which can be more career oriented. But for overall liberal arts education, it sounds very good!</p>